Haze in bottles

[Joerg]

We rinse and clean all bottles right after use. No detergents but this
procedure:

Warm water, shake, dump. Repeat. A little more warm water, hold a sponge
over the top or close a flip-top, shake vigorously, dump. Fill empty
bottle 15-20% with boiling-hot water, shake vigorously, dump. Fill
again, let sit for a few minutes, dump. Let bottle dry upside down.

Despite all that a milky-white haze layer develops on the bottom and
lower sides. Is that a concern or just cosmetic? If a concern, how can
that be cleaned with modest effort? Preferably without having to use
dishwashing powder.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
We rinse and clean all bottles right after use. No detergents but this
Warm water, shake, dump. Repeat. A little more warm water, hold a sponge
over the top or close a flip-top, shake vigorously, dump. Fill empty
bottle 15-20% with boiling-hot water, shake vigorously, dump. Fill
again, let sit for a few minutes, dump. Let bottle dry upside down.
Despite all that a milky-white haze layer develops on the bottom and
lower sides. Is that a concern or just cosmetic? If a concern, how can
that be cleaned with modest effort? Preferably without having to use
dishwashing powder.

What's your water like? Lots of dissolved minerals may be part of the
issue.

It may be something to do with excess sanitizer, grease that sneaked in,
yeast in the beer, or something like that clinging to the bottles. Some
yeasts are pretty stubborn. Worst case scenario is that it's some kind
of bacterial film, although you'd most likely know that from the quality
of the beer.

I gave my whole bottle collection a serious cleaning last year because I
realized they had a fair number of spots and streaks on the outside of
them I wasn't sure about, and I figured there may have been something
unwanted hiding on the inside of some of them. I filled a couple of big
plastic containers with hot water and unscented oxygen bleach and soaked
the bottles for about 24 hours, and then hand rinsed each one multiple
times to get all of the oxy bleach out. I could definitely tell the
difference. I still do a final rinse and sanitize before bottling, but I
feel more confident that any grunge that may have sneaked into them is
gone.

[Joerg]

Post by Joerg

Post by Joerg
We rinse and clean all bottles right after use. No detergents but this
Warm water, shake, dump. Repeat. A little more warm water, hold a

sponge

Post by Joerg
over the top or close a flip-top, shake vigorously, dump. Fill empty
bottle 15-20% with boiling-hot water, shake vigorously, dump. Fill
again, let sit for a few minutes, dump. Let bottle dry upside down.
Despite all that a milky-white haze layer develops on the bottom and
lower sides. Is that a concern or just cosmetic? If a concern, how can
that be cleaned with modest effort? Preferably without having to use
dishwashing powder.

What's your water like? Lots of dissolved minerals may be part of the
issue.

It is actually quite low in minerals. Pretty good for brewing though for
that purpose I run it through a charcoal filter, just in case.

Post by Joerg
It may be something to do with excess sanitizer, grease that sneaked in,
yeast in the beer, or something like that clinging to the bottles. Some
yeasts are pretty stubborn. Worst case scenario is that it's some kind
of bacterial film, although you'd most likely know that from the quality
of the beer.

I assume it is yeast. The taste is good, I make all kind of different
beers and none has tasted funky so far. Knocking on wood. 87 batches and
counting.

Post by Joerg
I gave my whole bottle collection a serious cleaning last year because I
realized they had a fair number of spots and streaks on the outside of
them I wasn't sure about, and I figured there may have been something
unwanted hiding on the inside of some of them. I filled a couple of big
plastic containers with hot water and unscented oxygen bleach and soaked
the bottles for about 24 hours, and then hand rinsed each one multiple
times to get all of the oxy bleach out. I could definitely tell the
difference.

That's a lot of work though. We have over 300 bottles.

Post by Joerg
... I still do a final rinse and sanitize before bottling, but I
feel more confident that any grunge that may have sneaked into them is
gone.

When bottling I mix a little over 1/2oz of StarSan with 2-3 gallons of
water. All bottles get drowned in it all the way until no air pockets
are left in them. After at least two minutes in there I take them out
and place them upside down on a homemade draining rack. Essentially some
wood from an old market umbrella with nine galvanized decks screws
sticking up to hold nine bottles. There they spend another two minutes
while I fetch and "drown" the next set of nine bottles.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
That's a lot of work though. We have over 300 bottles.

I'm guessing I did it on 150 or so. It's a once a year or two chore, I'd
say, and the actual amount of active work isn't that bad. I can fit 20
bottles at a time in my sink for rinsing purposes and it's maybe an hour to
rinse them all multiple times after the soak. Let's say the whole process
takes a couple of hours to set up the soak, follow up with several rinses
later, and then clean up and put away the bottles, not counting the time
sitting in the cleaning solution. It helps to have lots of room to work,
some extra crates for putting inverted bottles between rinses, etc.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
That's a lot of work though. We have over 300 bottles.

I'm guessing I did it on 150 or so. It's a once a year or two chore, I'd
say, and the actual amount of active work isn't that bad. I can fit 20
bottles at a time in my sink for rinsing purposes and it's maybe an hour to
rinse them all multiple times after the soak. Let's say the whole process
takes a couple of hours to set up the soak, follow up with several rinses
later, and then clean up and put away the bottles, not counting the time
sitting in the cleaning solution. It helps to have lots of room to work,
some extra crates for putting inverted bottles between rinses, etc.

A few hours are ok. What I found to consume excessive space is letting
them dry. First upside down, then standing. For drying the 5-gallon
water cooler bottles I use as secondary fermenters I made myself a
concoction of a fan and a funnel but I have only one of those.

[Derek J Decker]

Post by Joerg
We rinse and clean all bottles right after use. No detergents but this
Warm water, shake, dump. Repeat. A little more warm water, hold a sponge
over the top or close a flip-top, shake vigorously, dump. Fill empty
bottle 15-20% with boiling-hot water, shake vigorously, dump. Fill
again, let sit for a few minutes, dump. Let bottle dry upside down.
Despite all that a milky-white haze layer develops on the bottom and
lower sides. Is that a concern or just cosmetic? If a concern, how can
that be cleaned with modest effort? Preferably without having to use
dishwashing powder.

My secret weapon for cleaning the inside of glass containers is Liquid
Plumr. Nothing like gelled sodium hydroxide drain cleaner to dissolve,
well, anything. Good for Beer Stone, too.

Certainly one needs to rinse the bottles thoroughly after such a harsh
treatment, and precautions should be taken to not get any of that nasty
stuff on your skin, etc etc.

By the way, my standard bottle sanitizing routine on Bottling Day is to
run 'em through the dishwasher, with detergent. I've been doing this
every Saturday for years, and nary a problem with infection in my bottles
or soap in my beer. Different dishwashers may give different results,
YMMV, but this works for me, and has the advantage of being easy.

-Derek

[Joerg]

Post by Derek J Decker

Post by Joerg
We rinse and clean all bottles right after use. No detergents but this
Warm water, shake, dump. Repeat. A little more warm water, hold a sponge
over the top or close a flip-top, shake vigorously, dump. Fill empty
bottle 15-20% with boiling-hot water, shake vigorously, dump. Fill
again, let sit for a few minutes, dump. Let bottle dry upside down.
Despite all that a milky-white haze layer develops on the bottom and
lower sides. Is that a concern or just cosmetic? If a concern, how can
that be cleaned with modest effort? Preferably without having to use
dishwashing powder.

My secret weapon for cleaning the inside of glass containers is Liquid
Plumr. Nothing like gelled sodium hydroxide drain cleaner to dissolve,
well, anything. Good for Beer Stone, too.
Certainly one needs to rinse the bottles thoroughly after such a harsh
treatment, and precautions should be taken to not get any of that nasty
stuff on your skin, etc etc.
By the way, my standard bottle sanitizing routine on Bottling Day is to
run 'em through the dishwasher, with detergent. I've been doing this
every Saturday for years, and nary a problem with infection in my bottles
or soap in my beer. Different dishwashers may give different results,
YMMV, but this works for me, and has the advantage of being easy.

Wow, that all sounds like a lot of work. Especially in my case because I
often bottle two or three batches of five gallons each, sometimes four
batches.

So far I never had an infection. I just don't know whether that milky
layer which is probably from yeast residue carries a risk that an
infection might happen in the future. From a purely cosmetic point of
view I would not care.

[Derek J Decker]

<snip>

Post by Joerg

Post by Derek J Decker
My secret weapon for cleaning the inside of glass containers is Liquid
Plumr. Nothing like gelled sodium hydroxide drain cleaner to dissolve,
well, anything. Good for Beer Stone, too.
Certainly one needs to rinse the bottles thoroughly after such a harsh
treatment, and precautions should be taken to not get any of that nasty
stuff on your skin, etc etc.
By the way, my standard bottle sanitizing routine on Bottling Day is to
run 'em through the dishwasher, with detergent. I've been doing this
every Saturday for years, and nary a problem with infection in my
bottles or soap in my beer. Different dishwashers may give different
results, YMMV, but this works for me, and has the advantage of being
easy.

Wow, that all sounds like a lot of work. Especially in my case because I
often bottle two or three batches of five gallons each, sometimes four
batches.

Well, yeah, I brew a gallon of beer every week, and I still end up with
my beer fridge filling up. Maybe I need more friends....

Anyway, at this scale, no it's hardly any work at all...

Post by Joerg
So far I never had an infection. I just don't know whether that milky
layer which is probably from yeast residue carries a risk that an
infection might happen in the future. From a purely cosmetic point of
view I would not care.

[Joerg]

Post by Derek J Decker
<snip>

Post by Joerg

Post by Derek J Decker
My secret weapon for cleaning the inside of glass containers is Liquid
Plumr. Nothing like gelled sodium hydroxide drain cleaner to dissolve,
well, anything. Good for Beer Stone, too.
Certainly one needs to rinse the bottles thoroughly after such a harsh
treatment, and precautions should be taken to not get any of that nasty
stuff on your skin, etc etc.
By the way, my standard bottle sanitizing routine on Bottling Day is to
run 'em through the dishwasher, with detergent. I've been doing this
every Saturday for years, and nary a problem with infection in my
bottles or soap in my beer. Different dishwashers may give different
results, YMMV, but this works for me, and has the advantage of being
easy.

Wow, that all sounds like a lot of work. Especially in my case because I
often bottle two or three batches of five gallons each, sometimes four
batches.

Well, yeah, I brew a gallon of beer every week, and I still end up with
my beer fridge filling up. Maybe I need more friends....

Or bring it over :-)

No kidding, a gallon would last a couple of days here. That's only eight
pints.

Post by Derek J Decker
Anyway, at this scale, no it's hardly any work at all...

It's mostly the drying that holds me back, needs tons of space and
something to keep the bottles upside down for a while. Maybe I'll take
some large wood panels and pound long nails into it as holders.

[gtwrek]

Post by Joerg
It's mostly the drying that holds me back, needs tons of space and
something to keep the bottles upside down for a while. Maybe I'll take
some large wood panels and pound long nails into it as holders.

I use the dishwasher rack - just for holdinrgd the sanitized bottled upright
- and it doesn't need to by very dry if your using StarSan - you're
supposed to bottle over foam with StarSan.

Here's my process. When done driking the tasty beverage - the
bottle it gets filled half way with hot water, shaken, emptied,
and repeated. I don't try too hard to make sure the bottle's
bone-dry now. It get's thrown in the box with rest, and waited
until next bottling day.

Next bottling day, since the bottles have only been rudimentary cleaned,
I scrub 10-12 at at time with my bottle brush, then rinse once or twice.
Cleaned bottles go into the dishwasher rack to drip, while I clean the
rest. Particulary dirty bottles get put in another pile for the
OxyClean treatment at another time...

I then put StarSan into my bottling bucket, and run the sanitizer
through my wand and into the bottles - only fill the bottles half way or
so. Give em a shake - invert the bottles back into the bottling bucket
- so I sanitize the outside of the neck - emptying the starsan for use
on the next set of bottles. Sanitized bottles go back onto the
dishwasher rack to await filling.

Bottles that get sanitized, but not filled are covered with a bit of
foil and put up. Next time around these bottles won't be recleaned -
but will be resanitized. I don't care if these bottles are bone dry
before putting up - a little dribble of sanitizer in the bottle won't
make any difference - it's sanitizer - you're not going to get anything
growing there.

This works pretty well for me. Most of my brewing is outside / in the
garage - but on bottling days, I take up the kitchen and dishwasher for
a little while. Until the spousal-unit kicks me out for bottling too,
I'll continue this. If I need to move this outside, I'll likely try to
find another dishwasher rack from the junkyard. I supposed the long
nails through wood would work too.

Regards,

Mark

[Joerg]

Post by gtwrek

Post by Joerg
It's mostly the drying that holds me back, needs tons of space and
something to keep the bottles upside down for a while. Maybe I'll take
some large wood panels and pound long nails into it as holders.

I use the dishwasher rack - just for holdinrgd the sanitized bottled upright
- and it doesn't need to by very dry if your using StarSan - you're
supposed to bottle over foam with StarSan.

So you think StarSan could clean this? I am already using StarSan for
sanitataion during bottling. So maybe I should just let the bottles sit
in there more than the usual two minutes?

Post by gtwrek
Here's my process. When done driking the tasty beverage - the
bottle it gets filled half way with hot water, shaken, emptied,
and repeated. I don't try too hard to make sure the bottle's
bone-dry now. It get's thrown in the box with rest, and waited
until next bottling day.
Next bottling day, since the bottles have only been rudimentary cleaned,
I scrub 10-12 at at time with my bottle brush, then rinse once or twice.

Wow, that's a lot of effort. When bottle it's usually two 5-gallon
batches, sometimes three or for in one day.

Post by gtwrek
Cleaned bottles go into the dishwasher rack to drip, while I clean the
rest. Particulary dirty bottles get put in another pile for the
OxyClean treatment at another time...
I then put StarSan into my bottling bucket, and run the sanitizer
through my wand and into the bottles - only fill the bottles half way or
so. Give em a shake - invert the bottles back into the bottling bucket
- so I sanitize the outside of the neck - emptying the starsan for use
on the next set of bottles. Sanitized bottles go back onto the
dishwasher rack to await filling.
Bottles that get sanitized, but not filled are covered with a bit of
foil and put up. Next time around these bottles won't be recleaned -
but will be resanitized. I don't care if these bottles are bone dry
before putting up - a little dribble of sanitizer in the bottle won't
make any difference - it's sanitizer - you're not going to get anything
growing there.
This works pretty well for me. Most of my brewing is outside / in the
garage - but on bottling days, I take up the kitchen and dishwasher for
a little while. Until the spousal-unit kicks me out for bottling too,

I got (gently) kicked out for brewing after the 4th time or so :-)

Post by gtwrek
I'll continue this. If I need to move this outside, I'll likely try to
find another dishwasher rack from the junkyard. I supposed the long
nails through wood would work too.

Yeah, I think I'll have to make one. The current bottling pin rack is
only nine deck screws long, for nine bottles.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg
We rinse and clean all bottles right after use. No detergents but this
Warm water, shake, dump. Repeat. A little more warm water, hold a sponge
over the top or close a flip-top, shake vigorously, dump. Fill empty
bottle 15-20% with boiling-hot water, shake vigorously, dump. Fill
again, let sit for a few minutes, dump. Let bottle dry upside down.
Despite all that a milky-white haze layer develops on the bottom and
lower sides. Is that a concern or just cosmetic? If a concern, how can
that be cleaned with modest effort? Preferably without having to use
dishwashing powder.

Do you have one of those cheap electric pressure washers. I found that
setting mine to a narrow fan spray pattern and standing the bottles in
milk crates, a quick spray in each bottle with a twist of the wrist to
rotate the fan spray took a lot of old crud off the bottoms.

[Joerg]

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg
We rinse and clean all bottles right after use. No detergents but this
Warm water, shake, dump. Repeat. A little more warm water, hold a
sponge over the top or close a flip-top, shake vigorously, dump. Fill
empty bottle 15-20% with boiling-hot water, shake vigorously, dump.
Fill again, let sit for a few minutes, dump. Let bottle dry upside down.
Despite all that a milky-white haze layer develops on the bottom and
lower sides. Is that a concern or just cosmetic? If a concern, how can
that be cleaned with modest effort? Preferably without having to use
dishwashing powder.

Do you have one of those cheap electric pressure washers. I found that
setting mine to a narrow fan spray pattern and standing the bottles in
milk crates, a quick spray in each bottle with a twist of the wrist to
rotate the fan spray took a lot of old crud off the bottoms.

That's a good idea. I have a Karcher. However, it would not get the haze
off the sides so I guess only some sort of aggressive detergent works.