Brass hardware on fermenter rusting, why?

[Joerg]

The fermenter I use for Belgian beers has a massive blow-off connector
to deal with the "nuclear" yeast behavior and erupting kraeusen:

Loading Image...

The brass bulkhead fitting starts to rust on the inside, black and brown
just like iron does when left in the rain. However, this is brass, tried
holding a magnet at it to make sure, doesn't stick.

Can this be caused by kraeusen contact, CO2 or Starsan?

If so, any way to prevent that? Maybe some sort or food-grade rustoleum
product?

[Tom Biasi]

Post by Joerg
The fermenter I use for Belgian beers has a massive blow-off connector
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/Blowoff.JPG
The brass bulkhead fitting starts to rust on the inside, black and brown
just like iron does when left in the rain. However, this is brass, tried
holding a magnet at it to make sure, doesn't stick.
Can this be caused by kraeusen contact, CO2 or Starsan?
If so, any way to prevent that? Maybe some sort or food-grade rustoleum
product?

Rust is iron oxide. Brass doesn't rust but it will oxidize. Plumbing
fittings are not pure brass and often contain lead.
I think you are seeing oxide.

[Joerg]

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
The fermenter I use for Belgian beers has a massive blow-off connector
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/Blowoff.JPG
The brass bulkhead fitting starts to rust on the inside, black and
brown just like iron does when left in the rain. However, this is
brass, tried holding a magnet at it to make sure, doesn't stick.
Can this be caused by kraeusen contact, CO2 or Starsan?
If so, any way to prevent that? Maybe some sort or food-grade
rustoleum product?

Rust is iron oxide. Brass doesn't rust but it will oxidize. Plumbing
fittings are not pure brass and often contain lead.

Seriously? Even nowadays? This one is a bulkhead connector meant to
provide a faucet that is fed from a garden hose (for field use, camping,
outdoor events and such). Lead would not be good there.

Post by Tom Biasi
I think you are seeing oxide.

There are occasional black specks and when I wipe over the fitting with
a finger tip it looks brown, like rust.

Can I point that with something?

The alternative would be to use a PVC bulkhead but I could not find one.
There is not pressure on it because it's just to let out CO2 and excess
kraeusen. Has to be at least 3/4" piping or the lid will bulge and
possibly pop.

It looks like a lot of effort for a Belgian Tripel but that is
absolutely my all time favorite beer so I am brewing it on a regular
schedule.

[Tom Biasi]

Post by Joerg
Seriously? Even nowadays? This one is a bulkhead connector meant to
provide a faucet that is fed from a garden hose (for field use, camping,
outdoor events and such). Lead would not be good there.

There are presently regulations regarding lead in plumbing but as early
as 10 years ago it was still being used. Who knows what's in the Chinese
products.

[Joerg]

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
Seriously? Even nowadays? This one is a bulkhead connector meant to
provide a faucet that is fed from a garden hose (for field use,
camping, outdoor events and such). Lead would not be good there.

There are presently regulations regarding lead in plumbing but as early
as 10 years ago it was still being used. Who knows what's in the Chinese
products.

I bought it in Connecticut but who knows where it came from. I wonder if
there is something I could coat it with.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
Seriously? Even nowadays? This one is a bulkhead connector meant to
provide a faucet that is fed from a garden hose (for field use,
camping, outdoor events and such). Lead would not be good there.

There are presently regulations regarding lead in plumbing but as early
as 10 years ago it was still being used. Who knows what's in the Chinese
products.

I bought it in Connecticut but who knows where it came from. I wonder if
there is something I could coat it with.

You can remove surface lead with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar.

This is from "How to brew" but IIRC was actually cribbed from NASA.
However, leaving the brass in prolonged contact with acidic wort is
evidently moving you right onto the "left for too long" and dissolving
the copper state - this is not a good thing, for you.

http://howtobrew.com/book/appendices/appendix-b/brewing-metallurgy

Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort chillers
or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead that is
present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar to one
part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and
surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less
at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is
cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens,
then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is
beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become
contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution.

As such, I would advise firing up "shopping on the internet" or finding
a person with food-grade plastic for their 3-D printer and getting some
plastic parts to do the job. I would not trust paint, here.

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
Seriously? Even nowadays? This one is a bulkhead connector meant to
provide a faucet that is fed from a garden hose (for field use,
camping, outdoor events and such). Lead would not be good there.

There are presently regulations regarding lead in plumbing but as early
as 10 years ago it was still being used. Who knows what's in the Chinese
products.

I bought it in Connecticut but who knows where it came from. I wonder if
there is something I could coat it with.

You can remove surface lead with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar.

Good point! Found the peroxide with free shipping, just ordered it:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Member-s-Mark-Hydrogen-Peroxide-32-Fl-Oz-2-Ct/123453226

Will this stuff harm PVC or can I leave the bulkhead connector installed?

Post by Ecnerwal
This is from "How to brew" but IIRC was actually cribbed from NASA.
However, leaving the brass in prolonged contact with acidic wort is
evidently moving you right onto the "left for too long" and dissolving
the copper state - this is not a good thing, for you.
http://howtobrew.com/book/appendices/appendix-b/brewing-metallurgy
Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort chillers
or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead that is
present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar to one
part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and
surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less
at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is
cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens,
then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is
beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become
contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution.

Thanks, I bookmarked that.

Post by Ecnerwal
As such, I would advise firing up "shopping on the internet" or finding
a person with food-grade plastic for their 3-D printer and getting some
plastic parts to do the job. I would not trust paint, here.

I tried that before, could find any bulkhead connectors that fit a
garden hose thread and then saw that brass one. Brass is quite popular
in brewing:

https://mylhbs.com/Brewing-Equipment-Fittings-%26-High-Temp-Tubing/?subcategory=Brass%2BFittings

I have seen brass fermenter connections in breweries. In my case the
wort does not come into contact with it. It is only exposed to CO2, the
occasional spritz of Starsan and then every 3-4 months when I brew a
Belgian Tripel it'll have kraeusen blow-off belch through it for 3-4 days.

BTW, staining and discoloration even happens with PVC. I just brewed
rounds 48 and 49 and my plastic fermenter not have very noticeable
discolorations that won't come out even with a PBW soak. Each bucket has
only see about 25 batches.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
Seriously? Even nowadays? This one is a bulkhead connector meant to
provide a faucet that is fed from a garden hose (for field use,
camping, outdoor events and such). Lead would not be good there.

There are presently regulations regarding lead in plumbing but as early
as 10 years ago it was still being used. Who knows what's in the Chinese
products.

I bought it in Connecticut but who knows where it came from. I wonder if
there is something I could coat it with.

You can remove surface lead with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Member-s-Mark-Hydrogen-Peroxide-32-Fl-Oz-2-Ct/123453226
Will this stuff harm PVC or can I leave the bulkhead connector installed?

Post by Ecnerwal
This is from "How to brew" but IIRC was actually cribbed from NASA.
However, leaving the brass in prolonged contact with acidic wort is
evidently moving you right onto the "left for too long" and dissolving
the copper state - this is not a good thing, for you.
http://howtobrew.com/book/appendices/appendix-b/brewing-metallurgy
Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort chillers
or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead that is
present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar to one
part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and
surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less
at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is
cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens,
then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is
beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become
contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution.

Thanks, I bookmarked that.

Post by Ecnerwal
As such, I would advise firing up "shopping on the internet" or finding
a person with food-grade plastic for their 3-D printer and getting some
plastic parts to do the job. I would not trust paint, here.

I tried that before, could find any bulkhead connectors that fit a
garden hose thread and then saw that brass one. Brass is quite popular
https://mylhbs.com/Brewing-Equipment-Fittings-%26-High-Temp-Tubing/?subcategory=Brass%2BFittings
I have seen brass fermenter connections in breweries. In my case the
wort does not come into contact with it. It is only exposed to CO2, the
occasional spritz of Starsan and then every 3-4 months when I brew a
Belgian Tripel it'll have kraeusen blow-off belch through it for 3-4 days.
BTW, staining and discoloration even happens with PVC. I just brewed
rounds 48 and 49 and my plastic fermenter not have very noticeable
discolorations that won't come out even with a PBW soak. Each bucket has
only see about 25 batches.

At my local plumbing shop that stocks both brass and stainless fittings,
the last fitting I bought was cheaper in stainless than brass. I don't
know if this is generally true.

[Joerg]

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
Seriously? Even nowadays? This one is a bulkhead connector meant to
provide a faucet that is fed from a garden hose (for field use,
camping, outdoor events and such). Lead would not be good there.

There are presently regulations regarding lead in plumbing but as early
as 10 years ago it was still being used. Who knows what's in the Chinese
products.

I bought it in Connecticut but who knows where it came from. I wonder if
there is something I could coat it with.

You can remove surface lead with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Member-s-Mark-Hydrogen-Peroxide-32-Fl-Oz-2-Ct/123453226
Will this stuff harm PVC or can I leave the bulkhead connector installed?

Post by Ecnerwal
This is from "How to brew" but IIRC was actually cribbed from NASA.
However, leaving the brass in prolonged contact with acidic wort is
evidently moving you right onto the "left for too long" and dissolving
the copper state - this is not a good thing, for you.
http://howtobrew.com/book/appendices/appendix-b/brewing-metallurgy
Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort chillers
or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead that is
present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar to one
part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish and
surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5 minutes or less
at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow color as it is
cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the brass darkens,
then the parts have been soaking too long and the copper in the brass is
beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The solution has become
contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in a fresh solution.

Thanks, I bookmarked that.

Post by Ecnerwal
As such, I would advise firing up "shopping on the internet" or finding
a person with food-grade plastic for their 3-D printer and getting some
plastic parts to do the job. I would not trust paint, here.

I tried that before, could find any bulkhead connectors that fit a
garden hose thread and then saw that brass one. Brass is quite popular
https://mylhbs.com/Brewing-Equipment-Fittings-%26-High-Temp-Tubing/?subcategory=Brass%2BFittings
I have seen brass fermenter connections in breweries. In my case the
wort does not come into contact with it. It is only exposed to CO2,
the occasional spritz of Starsan and then every 3-4 months when I brew
a Belgian Tripel it'll have kraeusen blow-off belch through it for 3-4
days.
BTW, staining and discoloration even happens with PVC. I just brewed
rounds 48 and 49 and my plastic fermenter not have very noticeable
discolorations that won't come out even with a PBW soak. Each bucket
has only see about 25 batches.

At my local plumbing shop that stocks both brass and stainless fittings,
the last fitting I bought was cheaper in stainless than brass. I don't
know if this is generally true.

I would have loved stainless but could not find it anywhere. I could
only find those in brass. Any smaller than 3/4" just won't work for a
Belgian Tripel. The owner of a brewpub recommended using FermCap but I
couldn't bring myself to add a chemical to my brew yet.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
The fermenter I use for Belgian beers has a massive blow-off connector
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/Blowoff.JPG
The brass bulkhead fitting starts to rust on the inside, black and
brown just like iron does when left in the rain. However, this is
brass, tried holding a magnet at it to make sure, doesn't stick.
Can this be caused by kraeusen contact, CO2 or Starsan?
If so, any way to prevent that? Maybe some sort or food-grade
rustoleum product?

I would agree with others that it's probably some kind of oxidation,
although there's an outside chance of it being some kind of
mold/algae/bacteria.

I'm not sure you would need to have any fitting on the lid at all,
though. I think if you extend a piece of PVC pipe from the last elbow
joint into the lid with a stopper that would probably be enough.

See the third post here:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=127859

You could probably also put a stopper in the elbow and another in the
lid and run a piece of tubing between them, and as long as the diameters
are big enough you'd be fine.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
The fermenter I use for Belgian beers has a massive blow-off connector
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/Blowoff.JPG
The brass bulkhead fitting starts to rust on the inside, black and
brown just like iron does when left in the rain. However, this is
brass, tried holding a magnet at it to make sure, doesn't stick.
Can this be caused by kraeusen contact, CO2 or Starsan?
If so, any way to prevent that? Maybe some sort or food-grade
rustoleum product?

I would agree with others that it's probably some kind of oxidation,
although there's an outside chance of it being some kind of
mold/algae/bacteria.
I'm not sure you would need to have any fitting on the lid at all,
though. I think if you extend a piece of PVC pipe from the last elbow
joint into the lid with a stopper that would probably be enough.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=127859
You could probably also put a stopper in the elbow and another in the
lid and run a piece of tubing between them, and as long as the diameters
are big enough you'd be fine.

That's another idea. I could buy two bungs for carboys, drill one and
use the other for when brewing "normal" beers. Feels a bit flimsy though
just sticking it into a hole. It of ever comes off there will be a huge
mess which in my case is hard to clean. I am using a converted wine
fridge and it would ooze into the compressor area, electronics and
everywhere.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
That's another idea. I could buy two bungs for carboys, drill one and
use the other for when brewing "normal" beers. Feels a bit flimsy
though just sticking it into a hole. It of ever comes off there will
be a huge
mess which in my case is hard to clean. I am using a converted wine
fridge and it would ooze into the compressor area, electronics and
everywhere.

When I brew gallon batches, I have a jug with a stopper in the neck
holding an airlock or tube, and it never comes loose. As long as the
pressure from the CO2 has an easy escape route, it's not going to knock
out the stopper. And as long as you pipe/tubing is wide enough, the
odds of a clog from foam and crud are very small.

One advantage of having a section of clear tubing somewhere is you can
eyeball whether the foam is moving. If the lid is bulging and nothing
is going through the tube, you know you have a clog.

If you have any reason to be concerned, you could always install the
stopper through the bottom of the lid so the fat side is pointing down
and stick a clamp on the top side to make sure it didn't fall through if
the friction somehow didn't keep it in place.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
That's another idea. I could buy two bungs for carboys, drill one and
use the other for when brewing "normal" beers. Feels a bit flimsy
though just sticking it into a hole. It of ever comes off there will
be a huge
mess which in my case is hard to clean. I am using a converted wine
fridge and it would ooze into the compressor area, electronics and
everywhere.

When I brew gallon batches, I have a jug with a stopper in the neck
holding an airlock or tube, and it never comes loose. As long as the
pressure from the CO2 has an easy escape route, it's not going to knock
out the stopper. And as long as you pipe/tubing is wide enough, the
odds of a clog from foam and crud are very small.
One advantage of having a section of clear tubing somewhere is you can
eyeball whether the foam is moving. If the lid is bulging and nothing
is going through the tube, you know you have a clog.
If you have any reason to be concerned, you could always install the
stopper through the bottom of the lid so the fat side is pointing down
and stick a clamp on the top side to make sure it didn't fall through if
the friction somehow didn't keep it in place.

That should work. I had clogs with 1/2" pipe but not anymore since I
went to 3/4". However, first I'll try the peroxide-vinegar combo and
then maybe a burned-in spray paint coating. That would keep things
nicely modular.

Tomorrow a Pale Ale and a Saison will go into bottles, an IPA and a
Cream Ale into secondary and later this week I'll brew another saison
and a Honey Wheat.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg
The fermenter I use for Belgian beers has a massive blow-off connector
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/Blowoff.JPG
The brass bulkhead fitting starts to rust on the inside, black and brown
just like iron does when left in the rain. However, this is brass, tried
holding a magnet at it to make sure, doesn't stick.
Can this be caused by kraeusen contact, CO2 or Starsan?
If so, any way to prevent that? Maybe some sort or food-grade rustoleum
product?

You can fake a bulkhead fitting with PVC male threads and PVC grey
conduit nuts sold for terminations in boxes. Use washers, o-rings, hot
glue or caulk as needed. PVC bulkhead fittings are probably also sold
for hottubs.

[Joerg]

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg
The fermenter I use for Belgian beers has a massive blow-off connector
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/Blowoff.JPG
The brass bulkhead fitting starts to rust on the inside, black and
brown just like iron does when left in the rain. However, this is
brass, tried holding a magnet at it to make sure, doesn't stick.
Can this be caused by kraeusen contact, CO2 or Starsan?
If so, any way to prevent that? Maybe some sort or food-grade
rustoleum product?

You can fake a bulkhead fitting with PVC male threads and PVC grey
conduit nuts sold for terminations in boxes. Use washers, o-rings, hot
glue or caulk as needed. PVC bulkhead fittings are probably also sold
for hottubs.

Yes, you can do that but it won't fit any standard hose connector. My
goal was to have something that can easily be disassembled for cleaning
and storage. It is also easy to screw on a sealable blind plug if not
used (all I need now are garden hose rubber seals).

The whole contraption works remarkably well. All I need is to find a
method to stop the brass from "rusting". Next thing I'll try is the
hydrogen peroxide and vinegar combination that Lawrence suggested, once
the peroxide gets here. Then maybe try some sort of paint. When I was a
teenager and built my own ham radio gear there were parts such as morse
code keyers that are exposed to hands all the time and sometimes even
sweat. I bought black spray paint, preheated the parts to be coated in a
kitchen oven, fished them out with wire and then spray-coated them. That
stuff would never come off. The paint must have burned itself in when
landing on the hot metal.