Very sluggish start with dry yeast

[Joerg]

With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.

However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
described here:

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".

No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.

Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I don't get too excited/worried about it. Lots of (IMHO) foolishness
aimed at trying to sell oxygen, aerators, etc. It even strikes a
sympathetic chord in my engineer brain on "optimization" side of things.
Then a giant rumble from the cost/benefit side shuts it the heck down,
along with the cylindro-conical fermenter I haven't bought, etc.

Since you are fermenting in a bucket, stir it with a sanitized spoon or
a sanitized stainless paint mixer on a drill. Shaking only really
applies if you are dealing with a carboy where stirring effectively is
difficult. Shaking a bucket is a great way to pop the lid off and lose
half the wort. Your sanitation concern is, IMHO, not well-founded. I
truly do suggest reading the English translation (unless you happen to
read French well and can go for the original - I'm sure there must be a
German translation as well, given his market) of Pasteur's "Studies on
Fermentation: on the diseases of beer..." which is project-Gutenberg-ed
in several decent PDFs and some less decent ones, so if you get a crappy
one, keep looking. Some of the terminology has changed, but it is truly
a great foundation.

With wimpy liquid yeast where you have not built up a starter, the
solution is, of course to build up a starter. With dry yeast, some days
it's faster than others, but it is generally reliable whether it takes 6
hours or 40 to get in gear.

Myself, I normally follow the process suggested by, IIRC, Danstar, where
I rehydrate the dry yeast in boiled and cooled water for ~5 minutes
before adding to the wort, but I have certainly also just dumped dry
yeast in the fermenter at times without problems. In either case, you
can simply stir the heck out of it immediately, without waiting 30
minutes, but opening it after 30 minutes to stir, or stir again, is
really no big deal when you have stacked the odds with a few billion
yeast cells. They will make the environment more favorable to themselves
than to competing organisms.

This falls under re-read the "sanitize .vs. sterilize" section of John
Palmer's book (How to Brew) a few times until you really get it.
Sterilization is rarely achieved and also very rarely needed in brewing
- sanitizing adequately to maintain the odds stacked in favor of the
yeast is all you really have to achieve (and M. Pasteur says essentially
the same thing 140 years ago). If you can find an archive that goes back
far enough you'd find the precursor to that chapter posted right here.

[baloonon]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more
than 40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the
dry yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the
fermenter. Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually
settles into the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I
wonder if non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps.
Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort
addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I don't get too excited/worried about it. Lots of (IMHO) foolishness
aimed at trying to sell oxygen, aerators, etc. It even strikes a
sympathetic chord in my engineer brain on "optimization" side of
things. Then a giant rumble from the cost/benefit side shuts it the
heck down, along with the cylindro-conical fermenter I haven't bought,
etc.
Since you are fermenting in a bucket, stir it with a sanitized spoon
or a sanitized stainless paint mixer on a drill. Shaking only really
applies if you are dealing with a carboy where stirring effectively is
difficult. Shaking a bucket is a great way to pop the lid off and lose
half the wort. Your sanitation concern is, IMHO, not well-founded. I
truly do suggest reading the English translation (unless you happen to
read French well and can go for the original - I'm sure there must be
a German translation as well, given his market) of Pasteur's "Studies
on Fermentation: on the diseases of beer..." which is
project-Gutenberg-ed in several decent PDFs and some less decent ones,
so if you get a crappy one, keep looking. Some of the terminology has
changed, but it is truly a great foundation.
With wimpy liquid yeast where you have not built up a starter, the
solution is, of course to build up a starter. With dry yeast, some
days it's faster than others, but it is generally reliable whether it
takes 6 hours or 40 to get in gear.

A few of other things from my experience:

Check the expiration date/best used by date on the yeast package next
time. Sometimes you'll have an old one.

Sometimes the yeast has been really mistreated somewhere down in the
supply chain. It's hard to really ruin dry yeast, but it can happen.

Check to make sure the airlock and lid are set up right. I've had at
least a couple of times I've seen no bubbling, I've gotten concerned,
and then I found out there was a gap where CO2 was probably escaping --
a crack in the airlock, a lid that wasn't tight, etc.

Sometimes it just ferments slowly.

Like the post above says, don't worry about opening the lid as long as
you follow common sense, like not doing it in a drafty, dusty basement.
Some commercial brewers still practice the old method of open fermenting
where they never covered their vessels. They certainly keep everything
clean and sanitary, but it's not at a level of vaccine manufacturers,
for example, and the workers aren't wearing sanitized head to toe suits.

http://www.classiccitybrew.com/UKterrapin10.html

[Ecnerwal]

Post by baloonon
Some commercial brewers still practice the old method of open fermenting
where they never covered their vessels. They certainly keep everything
clean and sanitary, but it's not at a level of vaccine manufacturers,
for example, and the workers aren't wearing sanitized head to toe suits.
http://www.classiccitybrew.com/UKterrapin10.html

Indeed, my favorite commercial beer is brewed in a "Yorkshire square"
(open slate-lined vat) in Tadcaster. And one of my other highly ranked
brews is from one of those places in Belgium that opens the vents and
lets the beasties in from outside...

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more
than 40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the
dry yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the
fermenter. Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually
settles into the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I
wonder if non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps.
Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort
addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I don't get too excited/worried about it. Lots of (IMHO) foolishness
aimed at trying to sell oxygen, aerators, etc. It even strikes a
sympathetic chord in my engineer brain on "optimization" side of
things. Then a giant rumble from the cost/benefit side shuts it the
heck down, along with the cylindro-conical fermenter I haven't bought,
etc.

I always start to drool when I see conical fermenters in catalogs. Until
I look at the price. Wouldn't work well around here because of the
varying temperatures unless I had a temp-controlled basement which would
send our electricity bills through the roof.

On of the regulars at a brewpub has the ultimate man cave. A library
room and smack dab in the middle of it a huge stainless steel conical
fermenter.

Not happening here. This week I'll see if I can find one of those blue
5-gallon water cooler bottles so I can do 2nd fermentation for the finer
beers. One of the brewpub owners said Winco has them for cheap.

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal
Since you are fermenting in a bucket, stir it with a sanitized spoon
or a sanitized stainless paint mixer on a drill.

My wife graciously relinquished her pasta straining ladle. Black
flexible plastic, heat resistant. With the many holes in its surface
that can generate a good whirl. Also very useful to stir the wort during
the boil.

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal
... Shaking only really
applies if you are dealing with a carboy where stirring effectively is
difficult. Shaking a bucket is a great way to pop the lid off and lose
half the wort. Your sanitation concern is, IMHO, not well-founded.

Yeah, probably, since I never brew sour beers like one of the brewpubs
here does. I have no idea how I keep their other beers uncontaminated
considering that they only have one brewing area.

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal
... I
truly do suggest reading the English translation (unless you happen to
read French well and can go for the original - I'm sure there must be
a German translation as well, given his market) of Pasteur's "Studies
on Fermentation: on the diseases of beer..." which is
project-Gutenberg-ed in several decent PDFs and some less decent ones,
so if you get a crappy one, keep looking. Some of the terminology has
changed, but it is truly a great foundation.

I've read that a while ago. Pretty poor PDF but decipherable.

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal
With wimpy liquid yeast where you have not built up a starter, the
solution is, of course to build up a starter. With dry yeast, some
days it's faster than others, but it is generally reliable whether it
takes 6 hours or 40 to get in gear.

Good to know that 40h isn't unusual.

Post by baloonon
Check the expiration date/best used by date on the yeast package next
time. Sometimes you'll have an old one.

I always do and it was way towards the end on 2017.

Post by baloonon
Sometimes the yeast has been really mistreated somewhere down in the
supply chain. It's hard to really ruin dry yeast, but it can happen.

That I wouldn't know but it came from Midwest and they are really pros.

Post by baloonon
Check to make sure the airlock and lid are set up right. I've had at
least a couple of times I've seen no bubbling, I've gotten concerned,
and then I found out there was a gap where CO2 was probably escaping --
a crack in the airlock, a lid that wasn't tight, etc.

What I found out about those airlocks is that they obviously produce
them by gluing two halves together. But they left the burrs in the
section where it inserts into the rubber grommet. So I scraped those
seams down until smooth.

Post by baloonon
Sometimes it just ferments slowly.
Like the post above says, don't worry about opening the lid as long as
you follow common sense, like not doing it in a drafty, dusty basement.

I have no choice but to do that outside because the room downstairs is
carpeted. I really be in the doghouse if ever ...

Post by baloonon
Some commercial brewers still practice the old method of open fermenting
where they never covered their vessels. They certainly keep everything
clean and sanitary, but it's not at a level of vaccine manufacturers,
for example, and the workers aren't wearing sanitized head to toe suits.
http://www.classiccitybrew.com/UKterrapin10.html

I've seen one where they had several open fermenters going in an old
basement where there must have been the occasional speck of white paint
falling from the ceiling into the wort. Plus some opened windows.
Strangely no yellowjackets which were a little problem when I racked off
last time (outside). Once the trub showed they came swopping in so I had
to park the fermenter 10ft from where I was bottling. Normally I clean
it right away but that was impossible.

[rb]

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I've tried many options including the dry sprinkle into the wort.
My experience is that this leads to a slower 'takeoff' in fermentation,
but if I've been relatively hygienic no problems. For peace of mind I
re-hydrate a 10g sachet of dry yeast in ~ 250 ml 40C water (preferably
cooled from boiling) swirl in a wide mouth container of some sort for
some minutes, let sit for 15-20 minutes then add 10 ml additions of wort
every few minutes and swirl. After I've added ~50 ml of wort this way I
let it sit for 30 mins by which time it's getting quite frothy, and then
pitch.
My thinking is I've slowly brought the 40C yeasties down to a closer
temperature that the wort is at and somewhat acclimatised them to the wort.
Seems to work well for me.
rb

[Joerg]

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I've tried many options including the dry sprinkle into the wort.
My experience is that this leads to a slower 'takeoff' in fermentation,
but if I've been relatively hygienic no problems. For peace of mind I
re-hydrate a 10g sachet of dry yeast in ~ 250 ml 40C water (preferably
cooled from boiling) swirl in a wide mouth container of some sort for
some minutes, let sit for 15-20 minutes then add 10 ml additions of wort
every few minutes and swirl. After I've added ~50 ml of wort this way I
let it sit for 30 mins by which time it's getting quite frothy, and then
pitch.
My thinking is I've slowly brought the 40C yeasties down to a closer
temperature that the wort is at and somewhat acclimatised them to the wort.
Seems to work well for me.
rb

That gradual feeding is often described and it must be very reliable.
But also time-consuming. Since wort needs to be aerated and all I have
to do that is a spoon this causes foam to develop on top. So a lot of
the pitched yeast rests on that foam instead of on the wort even though
I try to spoon away some foam where I sprinkle. I am wondering if that
can cause a delay.

Why can't one pitch the yeast and then do the aeration? Maybe yeast
doesn't like vigorous stirring?

[Dan Logcher]

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I've tried many options including the dry sprinkle into the wort.
My experience is that this leads to a slower 'takeoff' in fermentation, but if I've been relatively
hygienic no problems. For peace of mind I re-hydrate a 10g sachet of dry yeast in ~ 250 ml 40C water
(preferably cooled from boiling) swirl in a wide mouth container of some sort for some minutes, let
sit for 15-20 minutes then add 10 ml additions of wort every few minutes and swirl. After I've added
~50 ml of wort this way I let it sit for 30 mins by which time it's getting quite frothy, and then
pitch.
My thinking is I've slowly brought the 40C yeasties down to a closer temperature that the wort is at
and somewhat acclimatised them to the wort.
Seems to work well for me.

I dump Safale-05 right in from the packet to 5 gallon wort at 70F and aerate. Done.
Fermentation gets really going 18-24 hours. If I reuse yeast cake from a previous batch,
its starts up within a few hours.

[Joerg]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I've tried many options including the dry sprinkle into the wort.
My experience is that this leads to a slower 'takeoff' in
fermentation, but if I've been relatively
hygienic no problems. For peace of mind I re-hydrate a 10g sachet of
dry yeast in ~ 250 ml 40C water
(preferably cooled from boiling) swirl in a wide mouth container of
some sort for some minutes, let
sit for 15-20 minutes then add 10 ml additions of wort every few
minutes and swirl. After I've added
~50 ml of wort this way I let it sit for 30 mins by which time it's
getting quite frothy, and then
pitch.
My thinking is I've slowly brought the 40C yeasties down to a closer
temperature that the wort is at
and somewhat acclimatised them to the wort.
Seems to work well for me.

I dump Safale-05 right in from the packet to 5 gallon wort at 70F and aerate. Done.

In that order, pitch -> then aerate? Makes perfect sense to me but all
instructions, books, videos and manuals I studied so far advised to
aerate first and then pitch. Beats me why. Maybe yeast doesn't like a
whooping?

Post by Dan Logcher
Fermentation gets really going 18-24 hours. If I reuse yeast cake from a previous batch,
its starts up within a few hours.

I haven't dared to do that yet. Do you just throw the whole yeast cake
in there before aerating, assuming the yeast has made enough babies that
are alive in the old yeast cake? Many instructions say that one needs
60-80 billion yeast cells for a regular low-ABV batch of five gallons.

[Dan Logcher]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I've tried many options including the dry sprinkle into the wort.
My experience is that this leads to a slower 'takeoff' in
fermentation, but if I've been relatively
hygienic no problems. For peace of mind I re-hydrate a 10g sachet of
dry yeast in ~ 250 ml 40C water
(preferably cooled from boiling) swirl in a wide mouth container of
some sort for some minutes, let
sit for 15-20 minutes then add 10 ml additions of wort every few
minutes and swirl. After I've added
~50 ml of wort this way I let it sit for 30 mins by which time it's
getting quite frothy, and then
pitch.
My thinking is I've slowly brought the 40C yeasties down to a closer
temperature that the wort is at
and somewhat acclimatised them to the wort.
Seems to work well for me.

I dump Safale-05 right in from the packet to 5 gallon wort at 70F and aerate. Done.

In that order, pitch -> then aerate? Makes perfect sense to me but all instructions, books, videos
and manuals I studied so far advised to aerate first and then pitch. Beats me why. Maybe yeast
doesn't like a whooping?

I've done about 70 batches this way, with roughly the same results on lag time.

Post by Dan Logcher
Fermentation gets really going 18-24 hours. If I reuse yeast cake from a previous batch,
its starts up within a few hours.

I haven't dared to do that yet. Do you just throw the whole yeast cake in there before aerating,
assuming the yeast has made enough babies that are alive in the old yeast cake? Many instructions
say that one needs 60-80 billion yeast cells for a regular low-ABV batch of five gallons.

I tried using 3 month old yeast cake and it didn't work.. but month old seems fine.
I save a quart ball jar of it in the fridge and pull it out before I start brewing.
You will notice it start to bubble again if the yeast is good. I pitch the cake and
stir it up.. 2 hours later its going well.

[Joerg]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
With my first five batches using dry yeast the fermentation began
prontissimo, within 12 hours. Batch #6 is an Autumn Amber. Nothing
strong, it clocked in slightly 1.04 OG.
However, this time the Safale US-05 yeast didn't start until more than
40h later. Was almost afraid I'd lose the batch. I sprinkled the dry
yeast the usual way after stirring and immediately closed the fermenter.
Some always lands on the foam but I guess that eventually settles into
the wort, too. This sluggish start had me puzzled and I wonder if
non-rehydrated dry yeast needs to be stirred into the wort like
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf
Quote "Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation
vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F).
Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast
covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave
for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition".
No problem but I am hesitant to open the fermenter again after 30
minutes to stir because that carries the risk of contamination.
Experts, what do thee say? Would shaking after 30 minutes also work?

I've tried many options including the dry sprinkle into the wort.
My experience is that this leads to a slower 'takeoff' in
fermentation, but if I've been relatively
hygienic no problems. For peace of mind I re-hydrate a 10g sachet of
dry yeast in ~ 250 ml 40C water
(preferably cooled from boiling) swirl in a wide mouth container of
some sort for some minutes, let
sit for 15-20 minutes then add 10 ml additions of wort every few
minutes and swirl. After I've added
~50 ml of wort this way I let it sit for 30 mins by which time it's
getting quite frothy, and then
pitch.
My thinking is I've slowly brought the 40C yeasties down to a closer
temperature that the wort is at
and somewhat acclimatised them to the wort.
Seems to work well for me.

I dump Safale-05 right in from the packet to 5 gallon wort at 70F and aerate. Done.

In that order, pitch -> then aerate? Makes perfect sense to me but all
instructions, books, videos
and manuals I studied so far advised to aerate first and then pitch.
Beats me why. Maybe yeast
doesn't like a whooping?

I've done about 70 batches this way, with roughly the same results on lag time.

Thanks. I am going to try this on the Blonde Ale coming up next. But
that is 8-9 days away from today because both fermenters are currently
occupied. The sluggish one with the Autumn Amber in there is still
fermenting a week after pitching. Very slowly, the airlock burps about
once a minute.

This is what I normally read:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/better-yeast-starters/

Quote "However, you shouldn't aerate a fermenting batch of beer for fear
of ending up with excess diacetyl. So, all your aeration needs to be
done prior to pitching the yeast to the main batch of beer".

I guess that's not really the case right after pitching because yeast
doesn't do a Speedy Gonzalez start.

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher
Fermentation gets really going 18-24 hours. If I reuse yeast cake from
a previous batch,
its starts up within a few hours.

I haven't dared to do that yet. Do you just throw the whole yeast cake
in there before aerating,
assuming the yeast has made enough babies that are alive in the old
yeast cake? Many instructions
say that one needs 60-80 billion yeast cells for a regular low-ABV batch of five gallons.

I tried using 3 month old yeast cake and it didn't work.. but month old seems fine.
I save a quart ball jar of it in the fridge and pull it out before I start brewing.
You will notice it start to bubble again if the yeast is good. I pitch the cake and
stir it up.. 2 hours later its going well.

Good information. Right now I am starting batches back-to-back so the
yeast cake wouldn't even get a day of rest. However, some of the recipes
do not use the common Safale US-05.

[Dan Logcher]

Post by Joerg
http://beerandwinejournal.com/better-yeast-starters/
Quote "However, you shouldn't aerate a fermenting batch of beer for fear of ending up with excess
diacetyl. So, all your aeration needs to be done prior to pitching the yeast to the main batch of
beer".
I guess that's not really the case right after pitching because yeast doesn't do a Speedy Gonzalez
start.

They mean not to aerate after primary fermentation. When adding dried yeast or liquid tube yeast
to a batch, you do want to stir it up and aerate.

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher
I tried using 3 month old yeast cake and it didn't work.. but month old seems fine.
I save a quart ball jar of it in the fridge and pull it out before I start brewing.
You will notice it start to bubble again if the yeast is good. I pitch the cake and
stir it up.. 2 hours later its going well.

Good information. Right now I am starting batches back-to-back so the yeast cake wouldn't even get a
day of rest. However, some of the recipes do not use the common Safale US-05.

I did back to back brews one weekend and racked off one batch and put the new one on
the cake. BOOM! Crazy fast.

[Joerg]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg
http://beerandwinejournal.com/better-yeast-starters/
Quote "However, you shouldn't aerate a fermenting batch of beer for
fear of ending up with excess
diacetyl. So, all your aeration needs to be done prior to pitching the
yeast to the main batch of
beer".
I guess that's not really the case right after pitching because yeast
doesn't do a Speedy Gonzalez
start.

They mean not to aerate after primary fermentation. When adding dried
yeast or liquid tube yeast
to a batch, you do want to stir it up and aerate.

That was new to me because all the recipes, videos and literature I read
have it the other way around, first stir or slosh, then pitch. But
according to what you wrote it should be the other way around. Makes
sense to me because your method distributes the yeast into the wort
better than waiting until the sprinkled yeast on the foam has settled
down to where the liquid begins.

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher
I tried using 3 month old yeast cake and it didn't work.. but month old seems fine.
I save a quart ball jar of it in the fridge and pull it out before I start brewing.
You will notice it start to bubble again if the yeast is good. I pitch the cake and
stir it up.. 2 hours later its going well.

Good information. Right now I am starting batches back-to-back so the
yeast cake wouldn't even get a
day of rest. However, some of the recipes do not use the common Safale US-05.

I did back to back brews one weekend and racked off one batch and put the new one on
the cake. BOOM! Crazy fast.

So you just left the yeast cake along with some beer residue in the
bottom of the fermenting bucket, poured in the next wort and stirred the
heck out of that mix? That's a cool method and would save $3-4 for the
dry yeast pack.

[Dan Logcher]

Post by Dan Logcher
I did back to back brews one weekend and racked off one batch and put the new one on
the cake. BOOM! Crazy fast.

So you just left the yeast cake along with some beer residue in the bottom of the fermenting bucket,
poured in the next wort and stirred the heck out of that mix? That's a cool method and would save
$3-4 for the dry yeast pack.

I didn't stir that time, just racked onto the cake and left it.

[Joerg]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher
I did back to back brews one weekend and racked off one batch and put the new one on
the cake. BOOM! Crazy fast.

So you just left the yeast cake along with some beer residue in the
bottom of the fermenting bucket,
poured in the next wort and stirred the heck out of that mix? That's a
cool method and would save
$3-4 for the dry yeast pack.

I didn't stir that time, just racked onto the cake and left it.

Amazing that the fermentation didn't starve for lack of oxygen since
racking would be much smoother than splashing it in by tipping the pot.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher
I did back to back brews one weekend and racked off one batch and put the new one on
the cake. BOOM! Crazy fast.

So you just left the yeast cake along with some beer residue in the
bottom of the fermenting bucket,
poured in the next wort and stirred the heck out of that mix? That's a
cool method and would save
$3-4 for the dry yeast pack.

I didn't stir that time, just racked onto the cake and left it.

Amazing that the fermentation didn't starve for lack of oxygen since
racking would be much smoother than splashing it in by tipping the pot.

My experience with ciders was that I didn't need anywhere near all the
yeast cake for the next batch. You should be able to save most and still
get a great start.

[Ecnerwal]

I never go more than 3 batches (2 reuses) on the "just leave in the
bottom of the fermenter" method. It does go mighty quick, but one gets
concerned about mutations if done to excess. I have occasionally
bothered with "yeast washing" where I recover a portion of the glop, add
clean water, let it settle in the fridge, and pull the good stuff out of
the middle with a baster. That can be stored in the fridge for quite a
while - I've never gone far enough down the road to get into the full
panoply of yeast ranching with slants, etc.

As for lack of oxygen, recall that the whole point of "the aerobic
phase" is getting the yeast to multiply. With a fresh cake you have all
the yeast you need, already reproduced. They can get right to making
beer without having to go forth and multiply.

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal
I never go more than 3 batches (2 reuses) on the "just leave in the
bottom of the fermenter" method. It does go mighty quick, but one gets
concerned about mutations if done to excess.

When the fermenter glows in the dark :-)

Post by Ecnerwal
... I have occasionally
bothered with "yeast washing" where I recover a portion of the glop, add
clean water, let it settle in the fridge, and pull the good stuff out of
the middle with a baster. That can be stored in the fridge for quite a
while - I've never gone far enough down the road to get into the full
panoply of yeast ranching with slants, etc.
As for lack of oxygen, recall that the whole point of "the aerobic
phase" is getting the yeast to multiply. With a fresh cake you have all
the yeast you need, already reproduced. They can get right to making
beer without having to go forth and multiply.

But doesn't the customary 0.4oz package of dry yeast already contain
around 100 billion yeast cells as well, enough for transforming the
whole five gallons into the good stuff?

Will try my first Koelsch tonight, couldn't wait, pulled two bottles
after only a week. Afterwards we'll have a home-made Pale Ale. But we'll
drink that last because ever since I started home-brewing again even the
better store-bought beer somehow tastes bland.

Now that is it cold enough and the fridge is no longer needed I've got
two fermenters going, one is currently making a Cream Ale, the other
Autumn Amber. Next up will be a Blonde Ale and by then hopefully the
ingredients for the next five batches get here. The dogs are already
sitting at the window waiting for the truck.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
But doesn't the customary 0.4oz package of dry yeast already contain
around 100 billion yeast cells as well, enough for transforming the
whole five gallons into the good stuff?

I think a lot of the talk of aerating has to do with hedging bets
against the possibility that the yeast packet has had something bad
happen to it, or the home brewer's thermometer is off by 10 degrees, or
something like that.

Liquid yeast has a smaller margin of error, and I think the starter
process doesn't always work for some brewers, so the need for maximizing
chances of success means that it's worth paying closer attention to
aeration.

Also, there's a subset yeast strains out there which produce very
different balances of flavors depending on their life cycle, so it's
worth paying attention to how quickly they start growing, which means
you want to be more careful about aeration.

Sometimes I would believe aeration is also a bigger deal when a really
high gravity beer is being made. But in general dry yeast packets have
a boatload of yeast cells ready to go and whether you add it and then
aerate, aerate then add, or don't really aerate at all, things will turn
out fine most of the time.

On the issue of pitching fresh yeast vs. pitching on slurries, it's
worth taking a look at articles like this at brulosophy.com

http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/02/sloppy-slurry-vs-clean-starter-
exbeeriment-results/

There are a series of them, and the general result is that the taste
testers can't tell the difference between them.

I would wonder if that's true when you're pitching on a yeast cake that
includes a ton of used hops or spices or fruit, but in general I'm sure
they're right that it won't make a difference.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
But doesn't the customary 0.4oz package of dry yeast already contain
around 100 billion yeast cells as well, enough for transforming the
whole five gallons into the good stuff?

I think a lot of the talk of aerating has to do with hedging bets
against the possibility that the yeast packet has had something bad
happen to it, or the home brewer's thermometer is off by 10 degrees, or
something like that.
Liquid yeast has a smaller margin of error, and I think the starter
process doesn't always work for some brewers, so the need for maximizing
chances of success means that it's worth paying closer attention to
aeration.
Also, there's a subset yeast strains out there which produce very
different balances of flavors depending on their life cycle, so it's
worth paying attention to how quickly they start growing, which means
you want to be more careful about aeration.
Sometimes I would believe aeration is also a bigger deal when a really
high gravity beer is being made. But in general dry yeast packets have
a boatload of yeast cells ready to go and whether you add it and then
aerate, aerate then add, or don't really aerate at all, things will turn
out fine most of the time.
On the issue of pitching fresh yeast vs. pitching on slurries, it's
worth taking a look at articles like this at brulosophy.com
http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/02/sloppy-slurry-vs-clean-starter-
exbeeriment-results/

Thanks, very interesting. One professional brewer I talked to said
pouring directly onto yeast cake is sloppy. But other pros seem to do it
as one commenter (Jason) at the end of that page wrote.

Quote "On our pilot system at the brewery I work at, we brew 1/2bbl
batches into buckets or carboys. We regularly knockout fresh wort on to
a full yeast cake that beer has been recently removed from via kegging".

Seems to work. I'd be concerned about sanitation but maybe carefully
spraying or wiping the inside top third of the fermenter bucket (with
the slurry still in there) and the inside of the lid with StarSan
suffices to keep the infection risk low for the next batch.

Post by baloonon
There are a series of them, and the general result is that the taste
testers can't tell the difference between them.
I would wonder if that's true when you're pitching on a yeast cake that
includes a ton of used hops or spices or fruit, but in general I'm sure
they're right that it won't make a difference.

For me that would be about the only option. Clogging our kitchen fridge
with various jars of yeast cake wouldn't be looked upon favorably here.
So I'd have to sequence beers that use the same yeast strain like the
popular Safale US-05. Won't work on the Blonde Ale this coming Friday
because that needs Safbrew T-58.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
Seems to work. I'd be concerned about sanitation but maybe carefully
spraying or wiping the inside top third of the fermenter bucket (with
the slurry still in there) and the inside of the lid with StarSan
suffices to keep the infection risk low for the next batch.

R, DW, HAHB. Also, please follow the following thought process:

What was just in the fermenter?

-Last batch of beer.

What it contaminated/infected?

-No.

So what are you concerned about? Unless you are incredibly sloppy you
have no more risk of infecting that "populated with the right sort of
beasties" fermenter than you do one that was totally sterilized (note,
again, that "sterilized" is not actually a place we normally go, anyway
- sanitized is.) That really comes down entirely to not providing a
significant path to infection in either case.

It may not look particularly clean, with hops residue, etc - but it's
been populated entirely by your previous batch of beer, so there's
really no reason at all to fuss about the "top third of the fermenter" -
just take the beer out, put the wort in, and don't encourage other
things to come live there in the meantime (i.e. put the lid back on and
don't wait too long.)

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
Seems to work. I'd be concerned about sanitation but maybe carefully
spraying or wiping the inside top third of the fermenter bucket (with
the slurry still in there) and the inside of the lid with StarSan
suffices to keep the infection risk low for the next batch.

What was just in the fermenter?
-Last batch of beer.
What it contaminated/infected?
-No.
So what are you concerned about? Unless you are incredibly sloppy you
have no more risk of infecting that "populated with the right sort of
beasties" fermenter than you do one that was totally sterilized (note,
again, that "sterilized" is not actually a place we normally go, anyway
- sanitized is.) That really comes down entirely to not providing a
significant path to infection in either case.
It may not look particularly clean, with hops residue, etc - but it's
been populated entirely by your previous batch of beer, so there's
really no reason at all to fuss about the "top third of the fermenter" -
just take the beer out, put the wort in, and don't encourage other
things to come live there in the meantime (i.e. put the lid back on and
don't wait too long.)

Yeah, I may be too paranoid about contaminant. OTOH when I racked off
about 10 days ago some yellowjackets swooped down into the fermenter the
minute I was done racking. Nobody knows where they have been before.

[rb]

Post by Joerg
For me that would be about the only option. Clogging our kitchen fridge
with various jars of yeast cake wouldn't be looked upon favorably here.
So I'd have to sequence beers that use the same yeast strain like the
popular Safale US-05. Won't work on the Blonde Ale this coming Friday
because that needs Safbrew T-58.

AH T-58 - watch your temps. Brew as low as you can....
rb

[Joerg]

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
For me that would be about the only option. Clogging our kitchen fridge
with various jars of yeast cake wouldn't be looked upon favorably here.
So I'd have to sequence beers that use the same yeast strain like the
popular Safale US-05. Won't work on the Blonde Ale this coming Friday
because that needs Safbrew T-58.

AH T-58 - watch your temps. Brew as low as you can....

Fermentis recommends 59F-68F and right now it is 65F downstairs. Should
be in the sweet spot. However, they want this yeast stirred in after
sprinkling onto the wort (which is essentially onto the form after
aeration).

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFBT58.pdf

The next five recipes are all US-05 again and that's where I want to try
to pour the wort onto the previous batch's yeast cake. Or rather half of
the yeast cake so things don't go nuclear in the fermenter. But with a
dry yeast pack at hand in case it fails to start.

[Dan Logcher]

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
For me that would be about the only option. Clogging our kitchen fridge
with various jars of yeast cake wouldn't be looked upon favorably here.
So I'd have to sequence beers that use the same yeast strain like the
popular Safale US-05. Won't work on the Blonde Ale this coming Friday
because that needs Safbrew T-58.

AH T-58 - watch your temps. Brew as low as you can....

Fermentis recommends 59F-68F and right now it is 65F downstairs. Should be in the sweet spot.
However, they want this yeast stirred in after sprinkling onto the wort (which is essentially onto
the form after aeration).
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFBT58.pdf
The next five recipes are all US-05 again and that's where I want to try to pour the wort onto the
previous batch's yeast cake. Or rather half of the yeast cake so things don't go nuclear in the
fermenter. But with a dry yeast pack at hand in case it fails to start.

You can pour new wort on the cake from the first batch, but it leaves a lot of trub.
You're better off scooping out 3-4 laddles of yeast. Cells will be very active.
The other option is jar it over night and let the trub settle out.

[Joerg]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
For me that would be about the only option. Clogging our kitchen fridge
with various jars of yeast cake wouldn't be looked upon favorably here.
So I'd have to sequence beers that use the same yeast strain like the
popular Safale US-05. Won't work on the Blonde Ale this coming Friday
because that needs Safbrew T-58.

AH T-58 - watch your temps. Brew as low as you can....

Fermentis recommends 59F-68F and right now it is 65F downstairs.
Should be in the sweet spot.
However, they want this yeast stirred in after sprinkling onto the
wort (which is essentially onto
the form after aeration).
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFBT58.pdf
The next five recipes are all US-05 again and that's where I want to
try to pour the wort onto the
previous batch's yeast cake. Or rather half of the yeast cake so
things don't go nuclear in the
fermenter. But with a dry yeast pack at hand in case it fails to start.

You can pour new wort on the cake from the first batch, but it leaves a lot of trub.
You're better off scooping out 3-4 laddles of yeast. Cells will be very active.
The other option is jar it over night and let the trub settle out.

Like this?

http://byo.com/equipment/item/739-harvesting-yeast-techniques

Our fridge isn't as cold as they recommend but should suffice for
storing for a few days. I use buckets as fermenters so I guess I'll have
to use the method they describe as, quote "An alternative method would
be to wait for the primary fermentation to subside and rinse some of the
trub layer away with sterile water before collecting a sample of yeast".

Does "rinse" mean adding a little purified water into the fermenter
bucket, swish and then just collect the more liquid trub contents into a
jar by tilting the bucket? I'll probably use a jar fo homemade preserve,
leaving the ring around the lid a little loose, just in case.

If possible I want to try this out on Friday. I'll be racking off a
Cream Ale tomorrow but likely can't brew another batch that uses the
same Safale US-05 dry yeast until some time next week. I'll be brewing a
Blonde Ale tomorrow afternoon but that needs a different yeast strain.

I am always concerned about contamination but as Lawrence said maybe I
am too concerned about it.

Saving $3-4 for the yeats packet is nice but the main reason is that a
local brewer told me that harvested yeast can produce a better beer than
fresh yeast.

[Dan Logcher]

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
For me that would be about the only option. Clogging our kitchen fridge
with various jars of yeast cake wouldn't be looked upon favorably here.
So I'd have to sequence beers that use the same yeast strain like the
popular Safale US-05. Won't work on the Blonde Ale this coming Friday
because that needs Safbrew T-58.

AH T-58 - watch your temps. Brew as low as you can....

Fermentis recommends 59F-68F and right now it is 65F downstairs.
Should be in the sweet spot.
However, they want this yeast stirred in after sprinkling onto the
wort (which is essentially onto
the form after aeration).
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFBT58.pdf
The next five recipes are all US-05 again and that's where I want to
try to pour the wort onto the
previous batch's yeast cake. Or rather half of the yeast cake so
things don't go nuclear in the
fermenter. But with a dry yeast pack at hand in case it fails to start.

You can pour new wort on the cake from the first batch, but it leaves a lot of trub.
You're better off scooping out 3-4 laddles of yeast. Cells will be very active.
The other option is jar it over night and let the trub settle out.

Like this?
http://byo.com/equipment/item/739-harvesting-yeast-techniques
Our fridge isn't as cold as they recommend but should suffice for storing for a few days. I use
buckets as fermenters so I guess I'll have to use the method they describe as, quote "An alternative
method would be to wait for the primary fermentation to subside and rinse some of the trub layer
away with sterile water before collecting a sample of yeast".
Does "rinse" mean adding a little purified water into the fermenter bucket, swish and then just
collect the more liquid trub contents into a jar by tilting the bucket? I'll probably use a jar fo
homemade preserve, leaving the ring around the lid a little loose, just in case.

Rinsing seems like more of a pain, and higher chance of infection.
What I do it collect in a jar and store in the fridge til I'm ready to reuse.
Sometimes I will shake it up then let it settle out again, at which point I
pour the top 3rd into the new batch. From what I've read, yeast seems to hang
in the middle of the jar.. trub on the bottom, beer on the top.

[Joerg]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
For me that would be about the only option. Clogging our kitchen fridge
with various jars of yeast cake wouldn't be looked upon favorably here.
So I'd have to sequence beers that use the same yeast strain like the
popular Safale US-05. Won't work on the Blonde Ale this coming Friday
because that needs Safbrew T-58.

AH T-58 - watch your temps. Brew as low as you can....

Fermentis recommends 59F-68F and right now it is 65F downstairs.
Should be in the sweet spot.
However, they want this yeast stirred in after sprinkling onto the
wort (which is essentially onto
the form after aeration).
http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFBT58.pdf
The next five recipes are all US-05 again and that's where I want to
try to pour the wort onto the
previous batch's yeast cake. Or rather half of the yeast cake so
things don't go nuclear in the
fermenter. But with a dry yeast pack at hand in case it fails to start.

You can pour new wort on the cake from the first batch, but it leaves a lot of trub.
You're better off scooping out 3-4 laddles of yeast. Cells will be very active.
The other option is jar it over night and let the trub settle out.

Like this?
http://byo.com/equipment/item/739-harvesting-yeast-techniques
Our fridge isn't as cold as they recommend but should suffice for
storing for a few days. I use
buckets as fermenters so I guess I'll have to use the method they
describe as, quote "An alternative
method would be to wait for the primary fermentation to subside and
rinse some of the trub layer
away with sterile water before collecting a sample of yeast".
Does "rinse" mean adding a little purified water into the fermenter
bucket, swish and then just
collect the more liquid trub contents into a jar by tilting the
bucket? I'll probably use a jar fo
homemade preserve, leaving the ring around the lid a little loose, just in case.

Rinsing seems like more of a pain, and higher chance of infection.
What I do it collect in a jar and store in the fridge til I'm ready to reuse.
Sometimes I will shake it up then let it settle out again, at which point I
pour the top 3rd into the new batch. From what I've read, yeast seems to hang
in the middle of the jar.. trub on the bottom, beer on the top.

Then that's what I'll do tomorrow, pour the whole trub into a glass. My
wife graciously gave me two of her salsa glasses at 7oz each, in case
one isn't enough. I'll sanitize them and store them until next week.
Probably good to split into two batches anyhow because I heard that
pitching a whole yeast cake results in overpitching, big bang, roof
tiles flying, an amber mushroom cloud and all that.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
Saving $3-4 for the yeats packet is nice but the main reason is that a
local brewer told me that harvested yeast can produce a better beer
than fresh yeast.

I'd be surprised if that's generally true -- I think the big suppliers like
Wyeast and Fermentis and White Labs are unlikely to be selling yeast below
its peak. Maybe it's a reference to some home brewers underpitching when
they use a fresh packet and pitching enough yeast when they use a slurry?

It's certainly possible to get great results with harvested yeast, though.
This piece about an English brewer says that they have been harvesting and
reusing the same yeast since 1957 without getting it cultured:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/10/london-goose-day-two-part-
three.html

There's a photo of how they just store it in refrigerated rooms in open
plastic buckets.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Saving $3-4 for the yeats packet is nice but the main reason is that a
local brewer told me that harvested yeast can produce a better beer
than fresh yeast.

I'd be surprised if that's generally true -- I think the big suppliers like
Wyeast and Fermentis and White Labs are unlikely to be selling yeast below
its peak. Maybe it's a reference to some home brewers underpitching when
they use a fresh packet and pitching enough yeast when they use a slurry?

It's not about the viability or gusto of fermentation start. More about
the taste of the beer. He said that yeast that has gone through one or a
few cycles is slightly different.

Maybe it's like the army, once through there most people change a bit.
Or like the old saying our dril sergeant used "As civilians you came, as
men you shall leave" :-)

Post by baloonon
It's certainly possible to get great results with harvested yeast, though.
This piece about an English brewer says that they have been harvesting and
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/10/london-goose-day-two-part-
three.html
There's a photo of how they just store it in refrigerated rooms in open
plastic buckets.

That is amazing. I've seen breweries with open fermenters in the
basement, windows cracked and flies buzzing about. But open yeast
buckets is really something.

Well, in a few hours I'll rack off a Cream Ale and will pour the slurry
from the fermenter into sanitized glass jars. Some or all of that will
be pitched tomorrow for an Irish Red.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Saving $3-4 for the yeats packet is nice but the main reason is that a
local brewer told me that harvested yeast can produce a better beer
than fresh yeast.

I'd be surprised if that's generally true -- I think the big suppliers like
Wyeast and Fermentis and White Labs are unlikely to be selling yeast below
its peak. Maybe it's a reference to some home brewers underpitching when
they use a fresh packet and pitching enough yeast when they use a slurry?

It's not about the viability or gusto of fermentation start. More about
the taste of the beer. He said that yeast that has gone through one or a
few cycles is slightly different.
Maybe it's like the army, once through there most people change a bit.
Or like the old saying our dril sergeant used "As civilians you came, as
men you shall leave" :-)

Post by baloonon
It's certainly possible to get great results with harvested yeast, though.
This piece about an English brewer says that they have been harvesting and
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/10/london-goose-day-two-part-
three.html
There's a photo of how they just store it in refrigerated rooms in open
plastic buckets.

That is amazing. I've seen breweries with open fermenters in the
basement, windows cracked and flies buzzing about. But open yeast
buckets is really something.
Well, in a few hours I'll rack off a Cream Ale and will pour the slurry
from the fermenter into sanitized glass jars. Some or all of that will
be pitched tomorrow for an Irish Red.

When I was starting new batches with old ones in process, I've just
siphoned a few ounces from the bottom for the new batch.

[Joerg]

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Saving $3-4 for the yeats packet is nice but the main reason is that a
local brewer told me that harvested yeast can produce a better beer
than fresh yeast.

I'd be surprised if that's generally true -- I think the big suppliers like
Wyeast and Fermentis and White Labs are unlikely to be selling yeast below
its peak. Maybe it's a reference to some home brewers underpitching when
they use a fresh packet and pitching enough yeast when they use a slurry?

It's not about the viability or gusto of fermentation start. More about
the taste of the beer. He said that yeast that has gone through one or a
few cycles is slightly different.
Maybe it's like the army, once through there most people change a bit.
Or like the old saying our dril sergeant used "As civilians you came, as
men you shall leave" :-)

Post by baloonon
It's certainly possible to get great results with harvested yeast, though.
This piece about an English brewer says that they have been harvesting and
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2016/10/london-goose-day-two-part-
three.html
There's a photo of how they just store it in refrigerated rooms in open
plastic buckets.

That is amazing. I've seen breweries with open fermenters in the
basement, windows cracked and flies buzzing about. But open yeast
buckets is really something.
Well, in a few hours I'll rack off a Cream Ale and will pour the slurry
from the fermenter into sanitized glass jars. Some or all of that will
be pitched tomorrow for an Irish Red.

When I was starting new batches with old ones in process, I've just
siphoned a few ounces from the bottom for the new batch.

I just filled two glass jars with the slurry, each 7oz jar is about half
full now. It looks like when one of our dogs throws up and there's bile
in there. Yech. But it's the good stuff, I'll see if tomorrow's Irish
Red gets going some time on Sunday.

I'll give it a good shake later and that should cause the dead material
to settle to the bottom so I don't pitch that. Will take them out of the
fridge in the morning where I have another bottling session (Autumn
Amber Ale). Brewing is in the afternoon.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
I'll give it a good shake later and that should cause the dead material
to settle to the bottom so I don't pitch that. Will take them out of the
fridge in the morning where I have another bottling session (Autumn
Amber Ale). Brewing is in the afternoon.

I'm not remotely clear how/why you think shaking it up (again) is going
to help. It's about as "shook up" as can be going into the jar, and
what's then needed (IME) is to let it sit still so things can separate,
and you can slurp the relatively clean yeast out from between the floaty
junk and the sinky junk. Or at least that what I always did (when
pulling it out of the fermenter at all.)

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I'll give it a good shake later and that should cause the dead material
to settle to the bottom so I don't pitch that. Will take them out of the
fridge in the morning where I have another bottling session (Autumn
Amber Ale). Brewing is in the afternoon.

I'm not remotely clear how/why you think shaking it up (again) is going
to help. It's about as "shook up" as can be going into the jar, and
what's then needed (IME) is to let it sit still so things can separate,
and you can slurp the relatively clean yeast out from between the floaty
junk and the sinky junk. Or at least that what I always did (when
pulling it out of the fermenter at all.)

It's been sitting in the fridge for about six hours now and all I can
see this: A huge pile of brown-gray sludge, about 2" high in each glass
jar. On top of that sits a yellowish liquid that occupies only 1/3"
each. The jars are about 2-1/2" diameter.

The yellow liquid will contain quite some leftover beer that I didn't
siphon out of the fermenter so I won't get trub into my bottling bucket.
Is that likely going to contain enough yeast for tomorrow's 5-gallon
batch? Not a strong beer, it's going to be an Irish Red starting at
about 1.045 gravity.

I guess I could try and if it doesn't start within a day pitch dry yeast
in addition.