candi sugar/cane sugar flavor differences

[dutchbrew/chicago]

How will my belgian ales benefit from using candi sugar as opposed to
cane sugar. I've only used cane sugar in several of my batches and i
am happy with the outcome. Also, I've done searches in this newsgroup
and have learned that the belgian candi sugar sold from brewshops are
actually just sucrose crystalized by boiling cane sugar and the real
stuff used in belgian breweries is something different. How would my
Tripel benefit from using real belgian candi sugar as opposed to the
generic stuff in homebrew shops.

Thanks in advance...

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by dutchbrew/chicago
How will my belgian ales benefit from using candi sugar as opposed to
cane sugar. I've only used cane sugar in several of my batches and i
am happy with the outcome. Also, I've done searches in this newsgroup
and have learned that the belgian candi sugar sold from brewshops are
actually just sucrose crystalized by boiling cane sugar and the real
stuff used in belgian breweries is something different.

Don't waste your money on the homebrew store candi sugar. It's just
overpriced table sugar anyway.

Post by dutchbrew/chicago
How would my
Tripel benefit from using real belgian candi sugar as opposed to the
generic stuff in homebrew shops.

That I can't tell you, although someone (MDixon?) recently posted a link
to a site that was selling real belgian candi sugar syrup.


John.

[dutchbrew/chicago]

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
That I can't tell you, although someone (MDixon?) recently posted a link
to a site that was selling real belgian candi sugar syrup.

Thanks John... I found his post, they have it at realbeer.com. If
anybody has used the real Belgian candy syrup in their beer i'd be
interested to know what the outcome was. If it significantly
contributes to the beer i may buy the stuff.

[IrishRedBrew]

Isn't thed difference between beet sugar and cane sugar? Which leads
to a difference in fermentabilty? If your goal is to brew to style, is
it really a Bel. if you use cane?

More questions then answers... sorry...

[MDixon]

Post by IrishRedBrew
Isn't thed difference between beet sugar and cane sugar? Which leads
to a difference in fermentabilty? If your goal is to brew to style, is
it really a Bel. if you use cane?
More questions then answers... sorry...

Cane = beet = table sugar...in many parts of the US table is beet. There
will be no difference in fermentability between cane and beet table sugars.

No beer is truly Belgian unless it is brewed in Belgium if you want to
be technical, but cane and table sugars work fine in styles requiring
sugar to lessen body and boost alcohol levels. If your goal is to meet
style, then use whatever ingredients will achieve that...it matters not
a sugars origin (malt and hops are a different story) if the only
contribution is lessened body and boosted alcohol. Now for the trappist
dark beers, use the syrup stuff Shaggy mentioned that I mentioned...;)

Cheers,
Mike

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by IrishRedBrew
Isn't thed difference between beet sugar and cane sugar? Which leads
to a difference in fermentabilty? If your goal is to brew to style, is
it really a Bel. if you use cane?
More questions then answers... sorry...

No, once the sugars are refined there really isn't any difference between
cane or beet. It's all basically pure sucrose once it becomes table
sugar.


John.

[Larry Bristol]

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
No, once the sugars are refined there really isn't any difference between
cane or beet. It's all basically pure sucrose once it becomes table
sugar.

Strike the word "pure" and I'll agree with you! :-)

[The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty]

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
No, once the sugars are refined there really isn't any difference between
cane or beet. It's all basically pure sucrose once it becomes table
sugar.

Strike the word "pure" and I'll agree with you! :-)

For all intents and purposes, refined sugar *is* pure sucrose --
typically 99.9% sucrose, with the remainder being various minerals. Even
raw sugar (available as Turbinado) is around 95% sucrose. This is the
case regardless of the origin of the sugar (cane versus beet).

(I live in Domino Sugar country...)

[Larry Bristol]

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
For all intents and purposes, refined sugar *is* pure sucrose --
typically 99.9% sucrose, with the remainder being various minerals.

The last time I checked, "pure" meant 100.0%. <grin>

But since we are apparently going to quibble about it, let's talk turkey.
Even if it is 99.9% sucrose, that still leaves 0.1%. That would mean one
pound of such sugar contains 4.54 grams of these "various minerals". There
are plenty of non-toxic minerals that I would not want to add as much as
4.54 grams to my beers, and an even *larger* list of minerals that would
have a flavor impact, even at such small levels as this.

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Even raw sugar (available as Turbinado) is around 95% sucrose. This is the
case regardless of the origin of the sugar (cane versus beet).

There is no argument about cane sugar being the same as beet sugar, at least
as far as the "sugar" part goes. There is, however, no guarantee those
0.1% "various minerals" are the same in both.

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
(I live in Domino Sugar country...)

Hey! I used to live in Sugar Land before I moved to the country! :-)

[Pierre Jelenc]

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
For all intents and purposes, refined sugar *is* pure sucrose --
typically 99.9% sucrose, with the remainder being various minerals.

The last time I checked, "pure" meant 100.0%. <grin>

No, there's no such thing. Even "analytically pure" chemicals are rarely
as much as 99.999%; most "pure" materials are 99-99.9%.

Grocery shop sugar is pure enough for molecular biologists to use in
making sucrose gradients for ultracentrifugation of RNA and ribosomes,
for instance.

Pierre

[The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty]

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
For all intents and purposes, refined sugar *is* pure sucrose --
typically 99.9% sucrose, with the remainder being various minerals.

The last time I checked, "pure" meant 100.0%. <grin>
But since we are apparently going to quibble about it, let's talk turkey.
Even if it is 99.9% sucrose, that still leaves 0.1%. That would mean one
pound of such sugar contains 4.54 grams of these "various minerals". There
are plenty of non-toxic minerals that I would not want to add as much as
4.54 grams to my beers, and an even *larger* list of minerals that would
have a flavor impact, even at such small levels as this.

Hmmm -- you must be using those new-fangled Japanese pounds. Last I
checked 1 God-Fearing American pound = 453.6 grams. 0.1% of which is
0.454 grams.

If you can taste the difference in the mineral profile between various
refined sugars, then I bow to you my friend -- for you have the most
sensitive palatte in the known universe.

If not, then as far as your beer is concerned, refined sugar is
essentially pure. This is leaving aside the fact that NO compound is
actually 100% pure -- using a strict definition of 100% essentially
renders the term meaningless.

[Mark R]

"The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty"

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
If not, then as far as your beer is concerned, refined sugar is
essentially pure. This is leaving aside the fact that NO compound is
actually 100% pure -- using a strict definition of 100% essentially
renders the term meaningless.

Not to mention what the FDA might consider acceptable levels, I'd hate to
ponder what other nutritional goodies come along with the 12.4 pounds of
malted barley sitting in the mash tun. ;-)

Mark R

[Larry Bristol]

Post by Mark R
Not to mention what the FDA might consider acceptable levels, I'd hate to
ponder what other nutritional goodies come along with the 12.4 pounds of
malted barley sitting in the mash tun. ;-)

You make a good point, Mark! Why should anyone worry about "trace"
impurities in sugar when surely the other ingredients used are also not
100% pure?

Whether it be grain or extract, malt is certainly not "pure". I'm not even
sure what the phrase "pure malt" would mean! But malt is an essential
ingredient in beer, and so all I can do is buy the best quality malt I can.
Whatever the impurities are, beer has been made with them for centuries.

The same can be said for hops, but they are also an essential ingredient in
the beers I make. [I've tasted beers made with other ingredients. The
most intriguing was made with spruce tips from Alaskan Brewing!] All I can
do is buy the best quality hops I can find.

As we all know, brewing water is certainly not pure, and if it was, we would
add minerals to it to make it better suited for brewing purposes!

Strangely, yeast is probably the most pure of all the ingredients we use in
making beer these days.

So with all this impurity to begin with, what's the big deal out of using
different ingredients? Why should you be concerned with 0.1% impurity
(assuming that's even the correct number)? Consider that a 0.1% solution
of sodium benzoate is *lethal* to yeast! Consider that when we add
minerals to brewing water, we measure the result in parts per million
(ppm). For example, "Ideal Pale Ale" water has 110ppm Calcium (Ca).
110ppm can also be expressed as 0.0110%! Tiny fractions are not
insignificant. [Oh, man! I also pulled off another "new math" there!]

All this means is that one should not simply add new ingredients into a
recipe willy nilly. Make sure there is a *reason* to add that ingredient,
because with every new ingredient, you are playing with unknowns.

But there are valid reasons to use other ingredients: You use sugar to
increase alcohol without significantly increasing body or flavor. You use
carapils to increase body without adding significant alcohol or flavor.
But can you think of a good reason to use both in the same recipe?

Ain't this a great hobby?!?

[Larry Bristol]

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Hmmm -- you must be using those new-fangled Japanese pounds. Last I
checked 1 God-Fearing American pound = 453.6 grams. 0.1% of which is
0.454 grams.

ROFL! And to think I used to be math wizard! How embarrassing! But what's
a decimal point here and there among friends?

But it does not invalidate the point I was trying to make. I have heard
many people proclaim that using too many different ingredients in a recipe
is a mistake. Anytime you add a new ingredient into a brew, you have to
realize that nothing is absolutely pure, and any impurities will also be
adding a wildcard factor. Experiment with it, and if you like the results,
then go with it, for that means the impurities are not significant (at
least to you). Or try something else you think is equivalent, and see if
the results are different.

Even with the corrected math, however, there are still non-toxic minerals
that I would not want to have even .4536 grams present. In addition, I did
not challenge your 99.9% sucrose analysis mainly because (with my NEW
math), I didn't deem it necessary or appropriate.

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
If you can taste the difference in the mineral profile between various
refined sugars, then I bow to you my friend -- for you have the most
sensitive palatte in the known universe.

Let's not get into THAT again, but ASAIAC, that has already been
established. I do not claim that my palette is any more sensitive than the
next, but I believe I (and others) can tell the difference between table
sugar and corn sugar in high quantities, and it is my considered opinion
that this difference is due to the differences in these impurities.

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
If not, then as far as your beer is concerned, refined sugar is
essentially pure.

I happen to disagree, but suit yourself. Personally, I never add anything
to my recipes except to provide something essential. As an example, adding
sugar of any kind to increase alcohol is never one of my goals, as I prefer
full-bodied brews. I do use turbinado sugar in one recipe because I think
it needs a hint of molasses in its flavor profile. I could probably make
that recipe even better by eliminating the sugar, using more base malt (to
adjust the OG), and adding the appropriate amount of molasses to obtain
that flavor. One of these days, maybe I'll give that a try, but only if I
deem it important enough to do the experiment.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty]

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Hmmm -- you must be using those new-fangled Japanese pounds. Last I
checked 1 God-Fearing American pound = 453.6 grams. 0.1% of which is
0.454 grams.

ROFL! And to think I used to be math wizard! How embarrassing! But what's
a decimal point here and there among friends?
But it does not invalidate the point I was trying to make. I have heard
many people proclaim that using too many different ingredients in a recipe
is a mistake. Anytime you add a new ingredient into a brew, you have to
realize that nothing is absolutely pure, and any impurities will also be
adding a wildcard factor. Experiment with it, and if you like the results,
then go with it, for that means the impurities are not significant (at
least to you). Or try something else you think is equivalent, and see if
the results are different.
Even with the corrected math, however, there are still non-toxic minerals
that I would not want to have even .4536 grams present. In addition, I did
not challenge your 99.9% sucrose analysis mainly because (with my NEW
math), I didn't deem it necessary or appropriate.

Um... ok.

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Larry Bristol
But since we are apparently going to quibble about it, let's talk turkey.
Even if it is 99.9% sucrose, that still leaves 0.1%. That would mean one
pound of such sugar contains 4.54 grams of these "various minerals". There
are plenty of non-toxic minerals that I would not want to add as much as
4.54 grams to my beers, and an even *larger* list of minerals that would
have a flavor impact, even at such small levels as this.

Do you know for a fact that the 0.1% impurities in sugar are things that
would effect the beer, or are you just making wild speculations again?


John.

[Larry Bristol]

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Do you know for a fact that the 0.1% impurities in sugar are things that
would effect the beer, or are you just making wild speculations again?

Oh, just making wild speculations, of course. Everything I say is complete
nonsense. It's not too different from *your* wild speculations that such
impurities have no effect, but unfortunately, I do not already know
everything like you do. Oh, and that 0.1% number is not an established
fact, just a WAG (not even a SWAG), something that was pulled out of the
air.

Once before I offered to help you with your slrn killfile. The offer is
still valid. I would consider it an honor to be included.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty]

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Do you know for a fact that the 0.1% impurities in sugar are things that
would effect the beer, or are you just making wild speculations again?

Oh, just making wild speculations, of course. Everything I say is complete
nonsense. It's not too different from *your* wild speculations that such
impurities have no effect, but unfortunately, I do not already know
everything like you do. Oh, and that 0.1% number is not an established
fact, just a WAG (not even a SWAG), something that was pulled out of the
air.

Yes -- I just made up the 99.9% number -- you caught me! Some of my
other past whoppers include:

- The earth revolves around the sun -- not visa versa as everyone knows.

- The moon is NOT made out of cheese.

- The earth is really much older than 6000 years.

- The United States is NOT actually run by a secret cabal of talking bears.

-- And many, many more!

[Wheat]

You forgot to mention your biggest "whopper":

Pluto is the ninth planet in our solar system!

LOL

Bill

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Do you know for a fact that the 0.1% impurities in sugar are things that
would effect the beer, or are you just making wild speculations again?

Oh, just making wild speculations, of course. Everything I say is complete
nonsense. It's not too different from *your* wild speculations that such
impurities have no effect, but unfortunately, I do not already know
everything like you do. Oh, and that 0.1% number is not an established
fact, just a WAG (not even a SWAG), something that was pulled out of the
air.

Yes -- I just made up the 99.9% number -- you caught me! Some of my other
- The earth revolves around the sun -- not visa versa as everyone knows.
- The moon is NOT made out of cheese.
- The earth is really much older than 6000 years.
- The United States is NOT actually run by a secret cabal of talking bears.
-- And many, many more!
--
(Replies: cleanse my address of the Mark of the Beast!)
http://www.swampgas.com/robotics/rover.html
Coauthor with Dennis Clark of "Building Robot Drive Trains".
Buy several copies today!

[Larry Bristol]

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Yes -- I just made up the 99.9% number -- you caught me! Some of my
- The earth revolves around the sun -- not visa versa as everyone knows.
- The moon is NOT made out of cheese.
- The earth is really much older than 6000 years.
- The United States is NOT actually run by a secret cabal of talking bears.
-- And many, many more!

Maybe I can help you with your killfile, also, although I know nothing about
Thunderbird.

It really is interesting to observe how some people react to ideas that are
different from their own. I'm glad that even in my old age, I can still
keep an open mind.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty]

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Yes -- I just made up the 99.9% number -- you caught me! Some of my
- The earth revolves around the sun -- not visa versa as everyone knows.
- The moon is NOT made out of cheese.
- The earth is really much older than 6000 years.
- The United States is NOT actually run by a secret cabal of talking bears.
-- And many, many more!

Maybe I can help you with your killfile, also, although I know nothing about
Thunderbird.

Why would you let *that* stop you?

Post by Larry Bristol
It really is interesting to observe how some people react to ideas that are
different from their own. I'm glad that even in my old age, I can still
keep an open mind.

Hey -- no need to get cheesed off at me. Complain to the major sugar
refiners and the bears. I'm just the messenger.

[Larry Bristol]

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Why would you let *that* stop you?

Unlike some, when there is a subject I know little about, I tend to keep my
mouth shut.

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Hey -- no need to get cheesed off at me. Complain to the major sugar
refiners and the bears. I'm just the messenger.

Oh, right. I forgot. You live in Domino sugar country and therefore know
everything there is to know about sugar.

I don't know what bears have to do with anything. All I know about bears is
that they are all Catholic, and that the Pope craps in the woods every day.
Or something like that.

Don't you think this has gotten to be just a little bit outlandish?

[The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty]

Post by Larry Bristol

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Why would you let *that* stop you?

Unlike some, when there is a subject I know little about, I tend to keep my
mouth shut.

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Hey -- no need to get cheesed off at me. Complain to the major sugar
refiners and the bears. I'm just the messenger.

Oh, right. I forgot. You live in Domino sugar country and therefore know
everything there is to know about sugar.

That, and how to spend two minutes checking the websites of a couple of
major sugar refiners:

(Crystal) http://www.crystalsugar.com/products/products5.sfacts.asp
(Imperial) http://www.imperialsugar.com/fw/main/default.asp?DocID=101

But we could all be in cahoots -- you know, just pulling those numbers
"out of thin air". Geez.

In any case, worrying about the impurities in refined sugar (likely
mostly calcium and potassium) is as far as I can tell a waste of time.
For brewing purposes, it's pure sucrose.

For the record, I have no idea -- and don't really care -- whether there
are flavor differences between white sugar and corn sugar. Other than
the rare trippel I don't use sugar. But I'd hate to see anybody worrying
over this non-existent "purity" issue if they *do* happen to run
across a recipe requiring some amount of sugar.

[Larry Bristol]

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
That, and how to spend two minutes checking the websites of a couple of
(Crystal) http://www.crystalsugar.com/products/products5.sfacts.asp
(Imperial) http://www.imperialsugar.com/fw/main/default.asp?DocID=101
But we could all be in cahoots -- you know, just pulling those numbers
"out of thin air". Geez.

Or much less than two minutes to post those reference in the first place and
end the discussion about what the actual purity is. Too bad you couldn't
find this information on Domino's web site, where I *did* spend several
minutes searching. But your intention was not to enlighten, just to
criticize.

[Mark R]

"The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty"

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Yes -- I just made up the 99.9% number -- you caught me! Some of my
- The earth revolves around the sun -- not visa versa as everyone knows.
- The moon is NOT made out of cheese.
- The earth is really much older than 6000 years.
- The United States is NOT actually run by a secret cabal of talking bears.
-- And many, many more!

Book forthcoming? :-)

Mark R

[The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty]

Post by Mark R
"The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty"

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
Yes -- I just made up the 99.9% number -- you caught me! Some of my
- The earth revolves around the sun -- not visa versa as everyone knows.
- The moon is NOT made out of cheese.
- The earth is really much older than 6000 years.
- The United States is NOT actually run by a secret cabal of talking

bears.

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
-- And many, many more!

Book forthcoming? :-)

The bears have me under a strict non-disclosure agreement.

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty

Post by Mark R
"The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty"

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
- The United States is NOT actually run by a secret cabal of talking

bears.
Book forthcoming? :-)

The bears have me under a strict non-disclosure agreement.

The psychodelic impurities in their honey make them act funny like that.


John.

[Mark R]

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar

Post by The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty
The bears have me under a strict non-disclosure agreement.

The psychodelic impurities in their honey make them act funny like that.

I guess we know what flowers those bees have been pollinating. ;-)

Mark R