Induction and other cooktops

[Joerg]

Just checked the downstairs electricity and it looks like I can get
120V/20A or alternatively 240V/15A. Turns out that most European vendors
will not sell into the US and it'll be a while until we get visitors
from there. 240V pro-burners from US vendors are out because they cost
hundreds of Dollars.

Since regular coil-style 120V portable cooktops are rarely more than
1000 watts I looked at 1800 watt induction cooktops in the budget class.
Unlike regular electric coil style burners they are mechanically wimpy.
When looking at

http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-portable-induction-cooktop/

and in particular at this photo

Loading Image...

it appears to be all plastic based. Rather thin stuff at that. I see no
chance that this kind of cooktop will survive a heavy pot with 7 gallons
pre-boil water and later an additional load of grains for BIAB in there.

Has anyone used an induction cooktop for brewing or cooking for a whole
wedding party and can share experiences? For me it needs to be a
single-burner version and with slanted panel because the brew pot will
overhang the panel.

[Tom Biasi]

Post by Joerg
Just checked the downstairs electricity and it looks like I can get
120V/20A or alternatively 240V/15A. Turns out that most European vendors
will not sell into the US and it'll be a while until we get visitors
from there. 240V pro-burners from US vendors are out because they cost
hundreds of Dollars.
Since regular coil-style 120V portable cooktops are rarely more than
1000 watts I looked at 1800 watt induction cooktops in the budget class.
Unlike regular electric coil style burners they are mechanically wimpy.
When looking at
http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-portable-induction-cooktop/
and in particular at this photo
http://thesweethome5.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/05/portable-induction-cooktop-9218-coils-ivation-portable-induction-cooktop-630.jpg
it appears to be all plastic based. Rather thin stuff at that. I see no
chance that this kind of cooktop will survive a heavy pot with 7 gallons
pre-boil water and later an additional load of grains for BIAB in there.
Has anyone used an induction cooktop for brewing or cooking for a whole
wedding party and can share experiences? For me it needs to be a
single-burner version and with slanted panel because the brew pot will
overhang the panel.

Perhaps it's time that you realize that to do 7 gallon boils you will
need a lot of BTUs. It's not likely you will find an induction burner to
do this. Your best bet is a high pressure propane burner.

[Joerg]

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
Just checked the downstairs electricity and it looks like I can get
120V/20A or alternatively 240V/15A. Turns out that most European vendors
will not sell into the US and it'll be a while until we get visitors
from there. 240V pro-burners from US vendors are out because they cost
hundreds of Dollars.
Since regular coil-style 120V portable cooktops are rarely more than
1000 watts I looked at 1800 watt induction cooktops in the budget class.
Unlike regular electric coil style burners they are mechanically wimpy.
When looking at
http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-portable-induction-cooktop/
and in particular at this photo
http://thesweethome5.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/05/portable-induction-cooktop-9218-coils-ivation-portable-induction-cooktop-630.jpg
it appears to be all plastic based. Rather thin stuff at that. I see no
chance that this kind of cooktop will survive a heavy pot with 7 gallons
pre-boil water and later an additional load of grains for BIAB in there.
Has anyone used an induction cooktop for brewing or cooking for a whole
wedding party and can share experiences? For me it needs to be a
single-burner version and with slanted panel because the brew pot will
overhang the panel.

Perhaps it's time that you realize that to do 7 gallon boils you will
need a lot of BTUs. It's not likely you will find an induction burner to
do this. Your best bet is a high pressure propane burner.

It will take time but that's ok. Induction plates nearly always have a
temperature sense feature. This isn't precise enough to result in an
exact steeping temperature and the provided set points are too coarse on
budget cooktops. However, I could set it to 140F or so early in the
morning, do the (long) dog walk, turn plate higher, check emails in my
home office and when it's at 155F go down and start the steeping. After
the usual 20-30 minutes I can turn the heat back up and do more work in
the office. The radio link of the meat thermometer will alert me shortly
before it gets to a boil. So the process would take way longer than on
propane but I wouldn't lose much time.

This is almost how I do it now in our kitchen except my wife has to stay
home, watch the pot a little and turn in off if it gets too high.
Because our range is older and has no temp-sense or timer feature.
Keeping things at boil with 3-3/4 gallons in there (the absolute
white-knuckle max of my current pot) requires only around 400-500W from
the range burner so this would be easy with an induction burner as well.

Once I "graduate" some more with my brewing I could splurge and get one
of those 3500 watt industrial 208/240V induction cooktops or a European
one with similar power. Or ... build my own with a coil that fits the
large pot diameter.

Aside from making sure a newly purchased brew kettle will work on an
induction cooktop (with stainless that's often a wild guess) my main
concern is the weight carrying capability of that burner. Regular
burners are usually oldfashioned designs and thus all steel. Induction
cooktops are more "modern" and that unfortunately means a flimsy plastic
bottom.

My brewing stuff can't really take up more storage space than it does
now. An induction cooktop uses no more space than a book on a shelf. No
need to store a big burner with hose and two propane tanks.

[Ecnerwal]

You prefer electricity (or the wood fire that's too complicated ATM for
you - though you might want to look into a wood-gasification-type
camp-stove as a more-easily controlled model for that route.)

Just make a 240V immersion heater (aka hot stick) from a water heater
element, preferably the longer type (less watts per length.) A nice
aluminum pot from any restaurant supply will work fine (40 quart, aka 10
gallon - insulate the exterior if you'd like to go for efficiency) or
you can go for one of those cheesy thin stainless pots if you like.

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal
You prefer electricity (or the wood fire that's too complicated ATM for
you - though you might want to look into a wood-gasification-type
camp-stove as a more-easily controlled model for that route.)

I strongly believe in wood fire and when I am cooking (pretty much every
Saturday and Sunday) it is always outdoors. That is also how I bake
pizza and our "trub bread". With beer this gets more complicated because
I'd have to rig up gallows or at least a tripod with a pulley to
regulate the heat. Maybe some day ...

For now I just want to be able to brew downstairs instead of in the kitchen.

Post by Ecnerwal
Just make a 240V immersion heater (aka hot stick) from a water heater
element, preferably the longer type (less watts per length.) A nice
aluminum pot from any restaurant supply will work fine (40 quart, aka 10
gallon - insulate the exterior if you'd like to go for efficiency) or
you can go for one of those cheesy thin stainless pots if you like.

That would be the ultimate redneck brewing setup :-)

I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

Nope. Just pipe fittings. You put it in the pot to brew, you don't drill
a hole in the pot to put it in - you can stir with it or turn it off and
remove it to stir.

Here's a $59 kit (no affiliation, don't use it myself, I brew on the
stovetop with a canning element.) You need to supply the wire and
element - or they sell a completed unit, but the upcharge for complete
seems rather steep to me considering the price of an element and wire.

http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

Nope. Just pipe fittings. You put it in the pot to brew, you don't drill
a hole in the pot to put it in - you can stir with it or turn it off and
remove it to stir.
Here's a $59 kit (no affiliation, don't use it myself, I brew on the
stovetop with a canning element.) You need to supply the wire and
element - or they sell a completed unit, but the upcharge for complete
seems rather steep to me considering the price of an element and wire.
http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

Quote "4500 or 5500 watts", now that's some power but I'd need to spend
serious dough on electric wiring for that (Zinsco panels don't exactly
help here ...). I just got back from buying a 2nd burner which brings it
to 2kW underneath the pot. The new pot I bought yesterday is 15-3/4" in
diameter and barely fits across both burners when placed back-to-back.
Only very little of the coils is in the open.

Now I'll have to figure out how to increase the range of the wireless
thermometer. Once that works it doesn't really matter whether it take
more than an hour to get to a boil because I can do other things. Got to
watch that remote thermometer display though. Nice thing is, the meet
thermometer alerts coincide with steeping temps and then it beeps at me.
So even if I left it in the stairway where it's in range I'd hear it.
Alternatively I could use a Labjack, a thermocouple, a PC and then pipe
it into the WLAN or let it run a really loud chime.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
Quote "4500 or 5500 watts", now that's some power but I'd need to spend
serious dough on electric wiring for that.

If you buy the kit, you choose the element - in your case, a 2500 to
3000 watter would seem to fit your limited power supply better.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

Nope. Just pipe fittings. You put it in the pot to brew, you don't drill
a hole in the pot to put it in - you can stir with it or turn it off and
remove it to stir.
Here's a $59 kit (no affiliation, don't use it myself, I brew on the
stovetop with a canning element.) You need to supply the wire and
element - or they sell a completed unit, but the upcharge for complete
seems rather steep to me considering the price of an element and wire.
http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

Quote "4500 or 5500 watts", now that's some power but I'd need to spend
serious dough on electric wiring for that (Zinsco panels don't exactly
help here ...).

You surely have that kind of power somewhere near that pool of yours.

[Joerg]

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

Nope. Just pipe fittings. You put it in the pot to brew, you don't drill
a hole in the pot to put it in - you can stir with it or turn it off and
remove it to stir.
Here's a $59 kit (no affiliation, don't use it myself, I brew on the
stovetop with a canning element.) You need to supply the wire and
element - or they sell a completed unit, but the upcharge for complete
seems rather steep to me considering the price of an element and wire.
http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

Quote "4500 or 5500 watts", now that's some power but I'd need to spend
serious dough on electric wiring for that (Zinsco panels don't exactly
help here ...).

You surely have that kind of power somewhere near that pool of yours.

Yes, also in the kitchen and laundry room. However, that is all far away
and the pool is not a nice location for brewing when you have to strap
the lid down so it won't fly off during a winter storm :-)

No kidding, I do that with the Weber barbecue. I always cook on weekend
but never in the kitchen. Had days where the barbecue was tied to a post
and the lid secured with wire. It's dinged and dented because one day it
did tear loose and flew down the driveway.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

Nope. Just pipe fittings. You put it in the pot to brew, you don't drill
a hole in the pot to put it in - you can stir with it or turn it off and
remove it to stir.
Here's a $59 kit (no affiliation, don't use it myself, I brew on the
stovetop with a canning element.) You need to supply the wire and
element - or they sell a completed unit, but the upcharge for complete
seems rather steep to me considering the price of an element and wire.
http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

Quote "4500 or 5500 watts", now that's some power but I'd need to spend
serious dough on electric wiring for that (Zinsco panels don't exactly
help here ...).

You surely have that kind of power somewhere near that pool of yours.

Yes, also in the kitchen and laundry room. However, that is all far away
and the pool is not a nice location for brewing when you have to strap
the lid down so it won't fly off during a winter storm :-)
No kidding, I do that with the Weber barbecue. I always cook on weekend
but never in the kitchen. Had days where the barbecue was tied to a post
and the lid secured with wire. It's dinged and dented because one day it
did tear loose and flew down the driveway.

I would just choose not to brew on a day like that.

[Scott Alfter]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

Nope. Just pipe fittings. You put it in the pot to brew, you don't drill
a hole in the pot to put it in - you can stir with it or turn it off and
remove it to stir.
Here's a $59 kit (no affiliation, don't use it myself, I brew on the
stovetop with a canning element.) You need to supply the wire and
element - or they sell a completed unit, but the upcharge for complete
seems rather steep to me considering the price of an element and wire.
http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

A premade (or mostly-premade) heatstick...interesting. I made my own a few
years ago and documented the process on my website, but these look more
robust (and easier to repair if you dry-fire one). I've also had issues
with my heatsticks tripping GFCIs, so maybe it'd be worth picking up one or
two of these.

My own design is documented here:

https://alfter.us/wp/beer-stuff/heatsticks/heatstick-assembly/

I changed the plastic handle at one point and haven't gotten around to
taking pictures. I used a casting resin to seal the terminals; while I
don't think I've had any problems with water or wort ingress, tripping GFCIs
has been a problem (enough so that I ended up removing some from the
power-distribution board I also built). While a short circuit ought to
still trip the breaker, I'm less than 100% comfortable with this
arrangement.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

[Joerg]

Post by Scott Alfter

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I have seen that in videos from Australia. Requires drilling and sealing
from the side. It'll become a challenge with stirring and even more so
later when I want to start BIAB.

Nope. Just pipe fittings. You put it in the pot to brew, you don't drill
a hole in the pot to put it in - you can stir with it or turn it off and
remove it to stir.
Here's a $59 kit (no affiliation, don't use it myself, I brew on the
stovetop with a canning element.) You need to supply the wire and
element - or they sell a completed unit, but the upcharge for complete
seems rather steep to me considering the price of an element and wire.
http://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/hotrod.htm

A premade (or mostly-premade) heatstick...interesting. I made my own a few
years ago and documented the process on my website, but these look more
robust (and easier to repair if you dry-fire one). I've also had issues
with my heatsticks tripping GFCIs, so maybe it'd be worth picking up one or
two of these.
https://alfter.us/wp/beer-stuff/heatsticks/heatstick-assembly/
I changed the plastic handle at one point and haven't gotten around to
taking pictures. I used a casting resin to seal the terminals; while I
don't think I've had any problems with water or wort ingress, tripping GFCIs
has been a problem (enough so that I ended up removing some from the
power-distribution board I also built). While a short circuit ought to
still trip the breaker, I'm less than 100% comfortable with this
arrangement.

If a purely resistive load such as an immersion heater trips the GFCI
there must be 5mA or more flowing towards protective earth or towards
some other grounded structure. There almost has to be fluid somewhere it
doesn't belong for that to happen.

I am doing the test run right now. Big aluminum pot with 6 gallons of
water in there heating up, temp shown here in the office. Two burners on
different circuits. To make sure there won't be surprises on Monday's
brew run and to season the pot. 6 gallons in a 13 gallon pot looks like
a puddle. Going to need some rope to lower the muslin bag for steeping.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
I am doing the test run right now. Big aluminum pot with 6 gallons of
water in there heating up, temp shown here in the office. Two burners
on different circuits. To make sure there won't be surprises on
Monday's brew run and to season the pot. 6 gallons in a 13 gallon pot
looks like a puddle. Going to need some rope to lower the muslin bag
for steeping.

Are you just steeping a pound or two for an extract beer? Wouldn't it be
easier to do that in a gallon pot stashed in an oven to stay warm, or else
in a cooler?

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
I am doing the test run right now. Big aluminum pot with 6 gallons of
water in there heating up, temp shown here in the office. Two burners
on different circuits. To make sure there won't be surprises on
Monday's brew run and to season the pot. 6 gallons in a 13 gallon pot
looks like a puddle. Going to need some rope to lower the muslin bag
for steeping.

Are you just steeping a pound or two for an extract beer? Wouldn't it be
easier to do that in a gallon pot stashed in an oven to stay warm, or else
in a cooler?

Not a gallon but I could do that in the smaller stainless steel pot.
Then I'd have to wash two pots though and have to shuffle them around. I
am trying to start brewing in a guest bath downstairs that isn't really
used. Very cramped quarters. I'll just get some rope and hang the bag in
there.

Right now I am still extract brewing but the goal is to move towards
BIAB next year. The pot I just bought has a colander plate because it's
really a steamer pot and this should fit BIAB nicely. Found out that
aluminum sure dents easily.