Wort chilling, fermentation temperatures

[Joerg]

Folks,

Last week I ordered this starter kit:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/platinum-pro-beer-brewing-starter-kit.html

Minor or maybe not so minor issue: We do not use A/C, just an
evaporative cooler and that doesn't reach downstairs where the brewing
happens. Even upstairs it's warm and I really don't want to brew there
because a mess would be a disaster. So temps can be above 80F which
doesn't bother us but does bother the brewing process. The last thing I
wanxt to have happen is lots of fusel oils in the beer.

Considering myself a brewing rookie after a 35 year hiatus I don't want
to invest an arm and a leg in wort chillers and fermentation fridges
just yet or at least until I know for sure that I'll be brewing for
years to come.

My idea for wort chilling is to schlepp the steel pot outside and set it
on the first step of our swimming pool. The pool does not get much above
80F and I could follow that with a small ice pack. Is this a suitable
method?

The next job is more complicated because my lower back is bad and
lifting a fermenter with five gallons into a fridge can be problematic.
It's tight down there so it'll have to be a one-man job. I think I need
to temporarily re-route the power for the old fridge so that it is
externally thermostat-controlled, with a sensor inside so it regulates
to 65-70F. But that would require dragging the fermenter in there. Or
maybe I can somehow transfer the chilled wort while the fermenter bucket
is already in the fridge and then add the yeast?

When bottling time comes is it ok to fill the bottling bucket only half,
add half the sugar solution, fill some bottles, then go back to the
fermenter and rack the other half?

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
Considering myself a brewing rookie after a 35 year hiatus I don't want
to invest an arm and a leg in wort chillers and fermentation fridges
just yet or at least until I know for sure that I'll be brewing for
years to come.
My idea for wort chilling is to schlepp the steel pot outside and set it
on the first step of our swimming pool. The pool does not get much above

Bad back - work with smaller fermenters, or invest a little in a used
peristaltic pump and new tubing. Schlepping that full pot won't do the
back any good, either. While this may seem at odds with my earlier
advice that 5 gallons is barely 10% more work than 1 gallon, you didn't
mention the back issue then, IIRC. And you can boil 5, then split it
into smaller fermenters; Cool in place with a coil type wort
cooler...right, you don't want to buy one (yet.) So put a smaller
pot/bowl with sanitized exterior (you can either boil it for 15 minutes
in the wort, or sanitize by other means) and then dump ice in it. Or
turn the stove off, cover the pot to keep unfriendlies out, and leave
it, evidently my concerns about HSA are old-fashioned anyway...

Temperature control - work with what you have and brew a saison
(spelling? anyway, Belgian summer farm ales that are _supposed_ to be
warm and get all sorts of banana/clove things going on.) Smaller
fermenters will make getting it into the fridge more practical/safer.

If you are "stuck" with a 6.5 gallon bucket, you won't get two of those
in a fridge, so your only practical option (IMHO) without spending more
than you apparently want to spend will be to brew 2.5 or 3 gallons and
have a lot of headspace. You MIGHT be able to get two levels of 4
1-gallon jugs in a fridge (depends on the fridge), but you'd have to
find the jugs and buy stoppers and more airlocks. Remember that airlocks
make the jugs taller if considering that approach.

I mostly try to brew "not in summer" which simplifies temperature
somewhat. You put off buying until the spring easy brewing season was
already over...

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
Considering myself a brewing rookie after a 35 year hiatus I don't want
to invest an arm and a leg in wort chillers and fermentation fridges
just yet or at least until I know for sure that I'll be brewing for
years to come.
My idea for wort chilling is to schlepp the steel pot outside and set it
on the first step of our swimming pool. The pool does not get much above

Bad back - work with smaller fermenters, or invest a little in a used
peristaltic pump and new tubing. Schlepping that full pot won't do the
back any good, either.

The pot with the hot wort would be easy. It's much less than 5 gallons
and I can set that on a hand truck, cart to the pool, set it on the
first step, maybe add a towel and some ice around it later, then cart it
back. Do you think that is a good idea?

I've read Australian brew instructions where they said not to use a
swimming pool. But none explained the reason.

Post by Ecnerwal
... While this may seem at odds with my earlier
advice that 5 gallons is barely 10% more work than 1 gallon, you didn't
mention the back issue then, IIRC. And you can boil 5, then split it
into smaller fermenters; Cool in place with a coil type wort
cooler...right, you don't want to buy one (yet.) So put a smaller
pot/bowl with sanitized exterior (you can either boil it for 15 minutes
in the wort, or sanitize by other means) and then dump ice in it. Or
turn the stove off, cover the pot to keep unfriendlies out, and leave
it, evidently my concerns about HSA are old-fashioned anyway...

I don't know what HSA in this respect (I guess not health savings
accounts ...) are but in summer the wort will unlikely cool far enough
for yeast pitching.

Post by Ecnerwal
Temperature control - work with what you have and brew a saison
(spelling? anyway, Belgian summer farm ales that are _supposed_ to be
warm and get all sorts of banana/clove things going on.) Smaller
fermenters will make getting it into the fridge more practical/safer.

Well, now I've ordered a kit with 6-1/2 gallon buckets and it comes with
a 5-gallon pale ale mix so I'll try that first. I like saisons. My wife
prefers ales and IPAs.

In case anyone ever travels in the area east of Sacramento this is an
excellent place for saisons, brewed right there behind the door on the
right:

http://mrazbrewingcompany.com/

Post by Ecnerwal
If you are "stuck" with a 6.5 gallon bucket, you won't get two of those
in a fridge, so your only practical option (IMHO) without spending more
than you apparently want to spend will be to brew 2.5 or 3 gallons and
have a lot of headspace. You MIGHT be able to get two levels of 4
1-gallon jugs in a fridge (depends on the fridge), but you'd have to
find the jugs and buy stoppers and more airlocks. Remember that airlocks
make the jugs taller if considering that approach.
I mostly try to brew "not in summer" which simplifies temperature
somewhat. You put off buying until the spring easy brewing season was
already over...

Mostly because I had a ton of work (self-employed). I'll have to figure
out something here, else it'll have to wait until fall.

Beats me why fridges don't allow the thermostat to be set up to 70F.
It's the same with stoves. We have a very new one with digital controls
and all that. My wife had a recipe that required something to be held at
110F or so and the stove would not allow any setting below 175F. That
just plain does not make sense.

So I'll have to rig up something with a thermostat, thin wire, relay,
li'l power supply and so on. Of course, the CO2 somehow also has to find
a way out during fermentation where hopefully opening the door 1-2 times
a day suffices. As long as nothing explodes in there as has happened
when I brewed 35 years ago.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
The pot with the hot wort would be easy. It's much less than 5 gallons
and I can set that on a hand truck, cart to the pool, set it on the
first step, maybe add a towel and some ice around it later, then cart it
back. Do you think that is a good idea?

"much less than 5 gallons" Sounds like concentrated boil. In which case
the other half being ice-water will do all the cooling you need to pitch.

Post by Joerg
I've read Australian brew instructions where they said not to use a
swimming pool. But none explained the reason.

I'd have logical fear of pool chemical transfer from the miasma of
chlorine-scented air.

Post by Joerg
I don't know what HSA in this respect (I guess not health savings
accounts ...) are but in summer the wort will unlikely cool far enough
for yeast pitching.

Hot Side Aeration - the main reason crash-cooling wort came into fashion
in the 1980/90s's. Currently somewhat discredited. If you were doing a
full boil, just put the cover on the pot and leave until tomorrow to
pitch - it will cool down just fine. Since it sounds like you are doing
a concentrated boil instead, just use ice/water to dilute and you'll
also cool. Since I have my coil and water is plentiful here, I use it,
discredited or not. I think I explained why I don't do concentrated
boils and never have in a prior post. - in short, more scorch/boilover
potential, and much worse hops utilization, so you need to use way more
hops.

Post by Joerg
So I'll have to rig up something with a thermostat, thin wire, relay,
li'l power supply and so on. Of course, the CO2 somehow also has to find
a way out during fermentation where hopefully opening the door 1-2 times
a day suffices. As long as nothing explodes in there as has happened
when I brewed 35 years ago.

Considering where else on usenet I know you from, this should be fun
times for you, and you can have fun figuring out how to do it for 98
cents. For people less so inclined, there are external temperature
controllers available off the shelf. As for the CO2, it will make its
way out of the fridge just fine. They may suffocate children, but they
don't hold pressure.

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
The pot with the hot wort would be easy. It's much less than 5 gallons
and I can set that on a hand truck, cart to the pool, set it on the
first step, maybe add a towel and some ice around it later, then cart it
back. Do you think that is a good idea?

"much less than 5 gallons" Sounds like concentrated boil. In which case
the other half being ice-water will do all the cooling you need to pitch.

Probably around 3 gallons or so, I'll have to wait until the stuff gets
here.

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I've read Australian brew instructions where they said not to use a
swimming pool. But none explained the reason.

I'd have logical fear of pool chemical transfer from the miasma of
chlorine-scented air.

Our tap water has about the same chlorine level as our pool. When I
discovered that I immediately installed a filter. Which will also make
sure that the water for the beer is chlorine-free.

I'd cover the pot, it's just to cool off.

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
I don't know what HSA in this respect (I guess not health savings
accounts ...) are but in summer the wort will unlikely cool far enough
for yeast pitching.

Hot Side Aeration - the main reason crash-cooling wort came into fashion
in the 1980/90s's. Currently somewhat discredited. If you were doing a
full boil, just put the cover on the pot and leave until tomorrow to
pitch - it will cool down just fine. Since it sounds like you are doing
a concentrated boil instead, just use ice/water to dilute and you'll
also cool. Since I have my coil and water is plentiful here, I use it,
discredited or not.

Water is scarce in California. Not right now but in general. So I like
to be frugal.

One story, I think also from Australia, had it that one of their forum
regulars poured his wort over a block of ice which melted in the process.

Post by Ecnerwal
... I think I explained why I don't do concentrated
boils and never have in a prior post. - in short, more scorch/boilover
potential, and much worse hops utilization, so you need to use way more
hops.

Considering that hops are expensive that sounds wise. But my pot ain't
big enough for that. I also only have a 1kW electric burner which is a
tad too small (have to fashion a shield plate for the thermostat control).

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
So I'll have to rig up something with a thermostat, thin wire, relay,
li'l power supply and so on. Of course, the CO2 somehow also has to find
a way out during fermentation where hopefully opening the door 1-2 times
a day suffices. As long as nothing explodes in there as has happened
when I brewed 35 years ago.

Considering where else on usenet I know you from, this should be fun
times for you, and you can have fun figuring out how to do it for 98
cents. ...

It's easy. Just for sports I like to build such stuff out of things I
find in my rummage boxes, without buying a thing. I just dislike
building and storing ever more clutter and stuff.

Post by Ecnerwal
... For people less so inclined, there are external temperature
controllers available off the shelf. As for the CO2, it will make its
way out of the fridge just fine. They may suffocate children, but they
don't hold pressure.

As long as I don't hear *PHOOFFF* from down there in the middle of the
night :-)

[baloonon]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
Considering myself a brewing rookie after a 35 year hiatus I don't
want to invest an arm and a leg in wort chillers and fermentation
fridges just yet or at least until I know for sure that I'll be
brewing for years to come.
My idea for wort chilling is to schlepp the steel pot outside and set
it on the first step of our swimming pool. The pool does not get much
above

Bad back - work with smaller fermenters, or invest a little in a used
peristaltic pump and new tubing. Schlepping that full pot won't do the
back any good, either. While this may seem at odds with my earlier
advice that 5 gallons is barely 10% more work than 1 gallon, you
didn't mention the back issue then, IIRC. And you can boil 5, then
split it into smaller fermenters; Cool in place with a coil type wort
cooler...right, you don't want to buy one (yet.) So put a smaller
pot/bowl with sanitized exterior (you can either boil it for 15
minutes in the wort, or sanitize by other means) and then dump ice in
it. Or turn the stove off, cover the pot to keep unfriendlies out, and
leave it, evidently my concerns about HSA are old-fashioned anyway...

You can also split the boil among two or even three pots, if carrying
them is a problem. They'll cool faster due to the greater surface area
if you put them in water. If you do put it in water, make sure the lid
is well secured so nothing splashes in. The main downsides are they
take more burner space and it's a bit more cleaning. Second hand stores
tend to sell smaller stock pots for cheap.

Post by Ecnerwal
Temperature control - work with what you have and brew a saison
(spelling? anyway, Belgian summer farm ales that are _supposed_ to be
warm and get all sorts of banana/clove things going on.) Smaller
fermenters will make getting it into the fridge more practical/safer.

I'd suggest going with smaller fermenters if there's space in the
fridge. I've read that a lot of bakeries have 2 or 3 gallon buckets for
frosting that they give away if you ask nicely, or you can buy them
pretty cheap online. You can drill them easily for an airlock and
gasket.

Or you can skip lifting the fermenter more than a couple of inches if
you get a styrofoam cooler big enough for the fermenter and some ice
packs or bottles of ice. Put a piece of hard plastic or wood on the
bottom of the cooler so it doesn't get stuck in the foam. Measure the
temp periodically to make sure it doesn't get too cold and replace the
ice as needed. It's not the most accurate, but works in most cases.
You can also hack something together easily with foam insulation sheets
and scrap lumber.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
Considering myself a brewing rookie after a 35 year hiatus I don't
want to invest an arm and a leg in wort chillers and fermentation
fridges just yet or at least until I know for sure that I'll be
brewing for years to come.
My idea for wort chilling is to schlepp the steel pot outside and set
it on the first step of our swimming pool. The pool does not get much
above

Bad back - work with smaller fermenters, or invest a little in a used
peristaltic pump and new tubing. Schlepping that full pot won't do the
back any good, either. While this may seem at odds with my earlier
advice that 5 gallons is barely 10% more work than 1 gallon, you
didn't mention the back issue then, IIRC. And you can boil 5, then
split it into smaller fermenters; Cool in place with a coil type wort
cooler...right, you don't want to buy one (yet.) So put a smaller
pot/bowl with sanitized exterior (you can either boil it for 15
minutes in the wort, or sanitize by other means) and then dump ice in
it. Or turn the stove off, cover the pot to keep unfriendlies out, and
leave it, evidently my concerns about HSA are old-fashioned anyway...

You can also split the boil among two or even three pots, if carrying
them is a problem. They'll cool faster due to the greater surface area
if you put them in water. If you do put it in water, make sure the lid
is well secured so nothing splashes in. The main downsides are they
take more burner space and it's a bit more cleaning. Second hand stores
tend to sell smaller stock pots for cheap.

Or borrow from neighbors, promising that a few bottles come back later :-)

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal
Temperature control - work with what you have and brew a saison
(spelling? anyway, Belgian summer farm ales that are _supposed_ to be
warm and get all sorts of banana/clove things going on.) Smaller
fermenters will make getting it into the fridge more practical/safer.

I'd suggest going with smaller fermenters if there's space in the
fridge. I've read that a lot of bakeries have 2 or 3 gallon buckets for
frosting that they give away if you ask nicely, or you can buy them
pretty cheap online. You can drill them easily for an airlock and
gasket.
Or you can skip lifting the fermenter more than a couple of inches if
you get a styrofoam cooler big enough for the fermenter and some ice
packs or bottles of ice. Put a piece of hard plastic or wood on the
bottom of the cooler so it doesn't get stuck in the foam. Measure the
temp periodically to make sure it doesn't get too cold and replace the
ice as needed. It's not the most accurate, but works in most cases.
You can also hack something together easily with foam insulation sheets
and scrap lumber.

That hack is a good idea. I could build a box that is barely larger than
the fermenter and is clad with styrofoam on the inside. Place four Solo
cups in the four corners, hang a wire sensor thermometer inside. If it
gets too warm in there drop some ice cubes into the Solo cups, if too
cold open the lid a little. Sort of a poor man's thermostat. The
high-tech version would have a peltier cooler or something from an
electric camping cooling box. With enough insulation it should not need
much in ice cubes or cooling energy because the required temperature
difference is less than 20F.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
That hack is a good idea. I could build a box that is barely larger than
the fermenter and is clad with styrofoam on the inside. Place four Solo
cups in the four corners, hang a wire sensor thermometer inside. If it
gets too warm in there drop some ice cubes into the Solo cups, if too
cold open the lid a little. Sort of a poor man's thermostat. The
high-tech version would have a peltier cooler or something from an
electric camping cooling box. With enough insulation it should not need
much in ice cubes or cooling energy because the required temperature
difference is less than 20F.

And you can cobble your junkbox temperature controller to your hearts
delight - basic high-tech ice box, this thing in forms from low tech to
bored engineers daydream has been around for a while - use ice or ice
packs as a cold source, control with fan, etc... But do remember that
the heat load is not simply maintaining differential to exterior - -
there is actual heat evolved in fermentation. Personally, I would not
touch the Peltier option with a 12 foot pole, they are too inefficient.
Finding a cheap dorm fridge at the end of the school year is a better
bet for a cooling unit, or running ducts to your basement fridge...or
the simple ice bottles/packs ferried between the "controlled cold
source" in the box (set up so it does not do much active cooling without
a fan - think gravity air flow control) and the basement fridge's
freezer. Well built, that does not need much tending and is efficient.

You can also park the fermenter with ice in the fridge and siphon wort
into it, or put the hot wort in the bucket (depends on the bucket, a
bit) and in the fridge, then add ice to it...

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
That hack is a good idea. I could build a box that is barely larger than
the fermenter and is clad with styrofoam on the inside. Place four Solo
cups in the four corners, hang a wire sensor thermometer inside. If it
gets too warm in there drop some ice cubes into the Solo cups, if too
cold open the lid a little. Sort of a poor man's thermostat. The
high-tech version would have a peltier cooler or something from an
electric camping cooling box. With enough insulation it should not need
much in ice cubes or cooling energy because the required temperature
difference is less than 20F.

And you can cobble your junkbox temperature controller to your hearts
delight - basic high-tech ice box, this thing in forms from low tech to
bored engineers daydream has been around for a while ...

For sports I am always trying to do stuff with things already at hand.
Such as a computer, a Labjack, a diode or thermocouple, a relay ... but
that would look too nerdy :-)


- use ice or ice

Post by Ecnerwal
packs as a cold source, control with fan, etc... But do remember that
the heat load is not simply maintaining differential to exterior - -
there is actual heat evolved in fermentation. Personally, I would not
touch the Peltier option with a 12 foot pole, they are too inefficient.
Finding a cheap dorm fridge at the end of the school year is a better
bet for a cooling unit, or running ducts to your basement fridge...or
the simple ice bottles/packs ferried between the "controlled cold
source" in the box (set up so it does not do much active cooling without
a fan - think gravity air flow control) and the basement fridge's
freezer. Well built, that does not need much tending and is efficient.
You can also park the fermenter with ice in the fridge and siphon wort
into it, or put the hot wort in the bucket (depends on the bucket, a
bit) and in the fridge, then add ice to it...

Long term the "in the fridge" method looks best. There is a seemingly
indestructible 1958 Bosch fridge down there which is used as the
"overflow fridge" when we get a lot of guests.

I just have to re-learn how the hops are added. Pitching the yeast seems
to be just that, a pitch, no stirring involved. So there would not need
to be much clearance up top until I need to rack it into the bottling
bucket. For that I could make a sort of wooden stool of same height as
the fridge bottom shelf so I can slide the fermenter onto that without
risking a back pain.