Grenading bottles

Post by Joerg
Now that the room temperature is slowly climbing towards 80F it starts
happening again ... *KAPOOF* ... CLATTER. Beer all over, what a mess. FG
was down to normal and I already reduced the corn sugar for each
5-gallon batch from the ridiculously high calculated quantity of 5oz to 3oz.
Some beers such as a Scottish Ale are gushing, foam keeps coming out
after opening and it doesn't stop until at least half the bottle is
poured. Those don't grenade though, for whatever reason. I don't think
there is any infection because all those beers taste good.
FG is always down to the normal range after primary. My typical beers
are in primary for 2 weeks, then in secondary for 2-8 weeks depending on
style.
What to do? Go to 2oz of sugar?
One thing I found out is that there are bottles that seem to be
inherently weak. I had many "Liquid Aloha" beer bottles burst, some
Sierra Nevada and to my surprise also a few of the Sam Adams style.
German 500ml, Belgian bottles, Modelo Negra and Grolsch with their thick
glass never grenade.

I would guess that you are bottling before most of the sugars are
fermented in the secondary. I usually wait a minimum of 4 weeks
in the secondary, and I've only had one bottle grenade in almost
thirty years. I've had cases where fermentation in the secondary
seems to have ended, and then start up again a little while later.
In my case, it may have been when I left the beer in the primary
too long and racked it after most of the yeast went dormant. That
can happen pretty quickly in hot weather. Perhaps that is happening
to you?

Cheers,
Rob Komar

Joerg

2018-06-13 19:34:09 UTC

Not sure but it would surprise me because FG at the end of primary is
usually down to 1.014 or less and no longer dropping. Also, once I
bottled a couple of beers from primary without adding sugar because I
couldn't fit all into secondary. I let those sit for two weeks and they
were completely flat, no carbonation a all. Did the usual 3oz corn sugar
on that beer after secondary and ... had a bottle go kablouie.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2018-06-14 00:47:22 UTC

Post by Joerg
Now that the room temperature is slowly climbing towards 80F it
starts happening again ... *KAPOOF* ... CLATTER. Beer all over, what
a mess. FG was down to normal and I already reduced the corn sugar
for each 5-gallon batch from the ridiculously high calculated
quantity of 5oz to 3oz.
Some beers such as a Scottish Ale are gushing, foam keeps coming out
after opening and it doesn't stop until at least half the bottle is
poured. Those don't grenade though, for whatever reason. I don't
think there is any infection because all those beers taste good.
FG is always down to the normal range after primary. My typical
beers are in primary for 2 weeks, then in secondary for 2-8 weeks
depending on style.
What to do? Go to 2oz of sugar?
One thing I found out is that there are bottles that seem to be
inherently weak. I had many "Liquid Aloha" beer bottles burst, some
Sierra Nevada and to my surprise also a few of the Sam Adams style.
German 500ml, Belgian bottles, Modelo Negra and Grolsch with their
thick glass never grenade.

Not sure but it would surprise me because FG at the end of primary is
usually down to 1.014 or less and no longer dropping. Also, once I
bottled a couple of beers from primary without adding sugar because I
couldn't fit all into secondary. I let those sit for two weeks and
they were completely flat, no carbonation a all. Did the usual 3oz
corn sugar on that beer after secondary and ... had a bottle go
kablouie.

Google your yeast strain. Some are notorious for dropping before fully
digesting all of the available sugar and then reviving in the bottle --
Wyeast 1968 is one. As long as your fermenting area is clean, you may
want to think about very gently stirring your beer every few days with a
very long spoon after the main fermentation is done up until you get to
a stable FG, as long as you're not getting any air into the mix. British
brewers will do that when using some yeasts to make sure they get a
completed fermentation.

Yeast nutrient is usually not necessary, but you may want to think about
it if there is anything unusual with your recipe or your water. It's
cheap and generally doesn't hurt and may help if your yeast is hiccuping
while it ferments. Also think about zinc -- if you Google you should be
able to find the right dietary supplement that contains it, as well as
the amount you might want to use.

You may have an infection in the bottles, and it may be worthwhile doing
a full clean before your final sanitizing, with a long soak in something
like oxygen bleach which is good at attacking bacterial films, followed
by tons of rinsing. You may want to do the same with your bottling
bucket, hoses, etc.

If you're dissolving your priming sugar in a small amount of water, it
can't hurt to use greater volume of water, say 500ml. A dense sugar-
water solution may not get well distributed in the bottling bucket. Also
make sure the sugar is completely, fully dissolved. If you want to get
really hardcore, when you bottle put a number on the cap indicating the
order of that it was bottled. If your gushers and grenades are all in
the last ten bottles you capped, that's a possible indication that
you're not getting a good mix of priming sugar into your beer before
bottling.

You may also want to let your bottling bucket settle for an hour or so
after transfer from the fermenter and before bottling, in order to let
disturbed yeast settle out, and don't fill bottles with the very last of
the beer in the bottling bucket, which may have a heavy concentration of
yeast.

You can also moderate the bottle temps by storing them in coolers with
some ice packs. Coolers are stackable, so they should be an efficient
way to store your beer.

Oh, and you may want to double check your scale. Some times they have an
issue with smaller weights and you may be adding more sugar than you
think.

Joerg

2018-06-14 15:05:55 UTC

Post by Joerg
Now that the room temperature is slowly climbing towards 80F it
starts happening again ... *KAPOOF* ... CLATTER. Beer all over, what
a mess. FG was down to normal and I already reduced the corn sugar
for each 5-gallon batch from the ridiculously high calculated
quantity of 5oz to 3oz.
Some beers such as a Scottish Ale are gushing, foam keeps coming out
after opening and it doesn't stop until at least half the bottle is
poured. Those don't grenade though, for whatever reason. I don't
think there is any infection because all those beers taste good.
FG is always down to the normal range after primary. My typical
beers are in primary for 2 weeks, then in secondary for 2-8 weeks
depending on style.
What to do? Go to 2oz of sugar?
One thing I found out is that there are bottles that seem to be
inherently weak. I had many "Liquid Aloha" beer bottles burst, some
Sierra Nevada and to my surprise also a few of the Sam Adams style.
German 500ml, Belgian bottles, Modelo Negra and Grolsch with their
thick glass never grenade.

Not sure but it would surprise me because FG at the end of primary is
usually down to 1.014 or less and no longer dropping. Also, once I
bottled a couple of beers from primary without adding sugar because I
couldn't fit all into secondary. I let those sit for two weeks and
they were completely flat, no carbonation a all. Did the usual 3oz
corn sugar on that beer after secondary and ... had a bottle go
kablouie.

Google your yeast strain. Some are notorious for dropping before fully
digesting all of the available sugar and then reviving in the bottle --
Wyeast 1968 is one.

It's all across the board. I always use dry yeast and even beers with
regular US-05 have grenaded. Many times with US-05 I harvest yeast from
previous batches, essentially starting the next batch with part of the
trub from a prior one if the bitterness and color wasn't more extreme.

Post by baloonon
... As long as your fermenting area is clean, you may
want to think about very gently stirring your beer every few days with a
very long spoon after the main fermentation is done up until you get to
a stable FG, as long as you're not getting any air into the mix. British
brewers will do that when using some yeasts to make sure they get a
completed fermentation.

Good idea but very tough for me because the secondaries reside in the
lower section of a heavy wine fridge turned fermentation chamber. Here,
except there are usually 3-2 of them in it:

Loading Image...

Post by baloonon
Yeast nutrient is usually not necessary, but you may want to think about
it if there is anything unusual with your recipe or your water. It's
cheap and generally doesn't hurt and may help if your yeast is hiccuping
while it ferments. Also think about zinc -- if you Google you should be
able to find the right dietary supplement that contains it, as well as
the amount you might want to use.

Wow, I didn't know yeast was this picky of an eater :-)

Post by baloonon
You may have an infection in the bottles, and it may be worthwhile doing
a full clean before your final sanitizing, with a long soak in something
like oxygen bleach which is good at attacking bacterial films, followed
by tons of rinsing. You may want to do the same with your bottling
bucket, hoses, etc.

That is a good point. After numerous uses the bottles develop a white
layer that looks like calcification. Even boiling water doesn't get that
off, very tough. However, shouldn't one taste an infection when
drinking? I never had any beer with an off-flavor and I am on batch #92 now.

During bottling I let each group of bottles soak in StarSan for at least
two minutes, then upside down onto a home-made draining contraption.
Essentially built from wood slats from an old market umbrella with deck
screws as holding spikes.

Post by baloonon
If you're dissolving your priming sugar in a small amount of water, it
can't hurt to use greater volume of water, say 500ml. A dense sugar-
water solution may not get well distributed in the bottling bucket. Also
make sure the sugar is completely, fully dissolved. If you want to get
really hardcore, when you bottle put a number on the cap indicating the
order of that it was bottled. If your gushers and grenades are all in
the last ten bottles you capped, that's a possible indication that
you're not getting a good mix of priming sugar into your beer before
bottling.

Also a good idea. Though I already use around 12oz of water for 3oz of
corn sugar, pour that into the bottling bucket, rack the beer on top of
it without splashing, then gently "heave from the bottom" several a
sanitized pasta strainer.

What I do occasionally see is lots of fine bubbles racing through the
tube when bottling. Probably CO2, I guess.

Post by baloonon
You may also want to let your bottling bucket settle for an hour or so
after transfer from the fermenter and before bottling, in order to let
disturbed yeast settle out, and don't fill bottles with the very last of
the beer in the bottling bucket, which may have a heavy concentration of
yeast.

Though if that residual yeast can't find more than the usual low sugar
concentration, could it do much damage?

Post by baloonon
You can also moderate the bottle temps by storing them in coolers with
some ice packs. Coolers are stackable, so they should be an efficient
way to store your beer.

That would be a logistical nightmare. I brew a lot so we have a nice
variety and the whole basement room is full plastic crates that can't
really be stacked.

Post by baloonon
Oh, and you may want to double check your scale. Some times they have an
issue with smaller weights and you may be adding more sugar than you
think.

That I did, scale is ok.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2018-06-14 17:53:20 UTC

Post by Joerg
Now that the room temperature is slowly climbing towards 80F it
starts happening again ... *KAPOOF* ... CLATTER. Beer all over,
what a mess. FG was down to normal and I already reduced the corn
sugar for each 5-gallon batch from the ridiculously high
calculated quantity of 5oz to 3oz.
Some beers such as a Scottish Ale are gushing, foam keeps coming
out after opening and it doesn't stop until at least half the
bottle is poured. Those don't grenade though, for whatever reason.
I don't think there is any infection because all those beers taste
good.
FG is always down to the normal range after primary. My typical
beers are in primary for 2 weeks, then in secondary for 2-8 weeks
depending on style.
What to do? Go to 2oz of sugar?
One thing I found out is that there are bottles that seem to be
inherently weak. I had many "Liquid Aloha" beer bottles burst,
some Sierra Nevada and to my surprise also a few of the Sam Adams
style. German 500ml, Belgian bottles, Modelo Negra and Grolsch
with their thick glass never grenade.

Not sure but it would surprise me because FG at the end of primary
is usually down to 1.014 or less and no longer dropping. Also, once
I bottled a couple of beers from primary without adding sugar
because I couldn't fit all into secondary. I let those sit for two
weeks and they were completely flat, no carbonation a all. Did the
usual 3oz corn sugar on that beer after secondary and ... had a
bottle go kablouie.

Google your yeast strain. Some are notorious for dropping before
fully digesting all of the available sugar and then reviving in the
bottle -- Wyeast 1968 is one.

It's all across the board. I always use dry yeast and even beers with
regular US-05 have grenaded. Many times with US-05 I harvest yeast
from previous batches, essentially starting the next batch with part
of the trub from a prior one if the bitterness and color wasn't more
extreme.

Post by baloonon
... As long as your fermenting area is clean, you may
want to think about very gently stirring your beer every few days
with a very long spoon after the main fermentation is done up until
you get to a stable FG, as long as you're not getting any air into
the mix. British brewers will do that when using some yeasts to make
sure they get a completed fermentation.

Good idea but very tough for me because the secondaries reside in the
lower section of a heavy wine fridge turned fermentation chamber.
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/chamber2.JPG

You ought to be able to improvise something that would work -- I
wouldn't be surprised if you could even make something from folded
aluminum foil if you practiced on an unused carboy.

Post by baloonon
Yeast nutrient is usually not necessary, but you may want to think
about it if there is anything unusual with your recipe or your water.
It's cheap and generally doesn't hurt and may help if your yeast is
hiccuping while it ferments. Also think about zinc -- if you Google
you should be able to find the right dietary supplement that contains
it, as well as the amount you might want to use.

Wow, I didn't know yeast was this picky of an eater :-)

Like I say, it's usually not necessary, but my recollection is that
sometimes water with odd PH will be an issue, sometimes high levels of
some salts are an issue, and sometimes really big beers need a boost.
It's one of those things if you're in a store, it may not be a bad idea
to pick up a couple of bucks worth to experiment with, which should last
a really long time. Ditto for a bottle of zinc tablets from the drug
store -- I think you need just a fraction of a tablet, which means a
bottle should last almost forever, and you can always just take the zinc
yourself if you decide it's not doing anything for the beer (it may
not).

Post by baloonon
You may have an infection in the bottles, and it may be worthwhile
doing a full clean before your final sanitizing, with a long soak in
something like oxygen bleach which is good at attacking bacterial
films, followed by tons of rinsing. You may want to do the same with
your bottling bucket, hoses, etc.

That is a good point. After numerous uses the bottles develop a white
layer that looks like calcification. Even boiling water doesn't get
that off, very tough. However, shouldn't one taste an infection when
drinking? I never had any beer with an off-flavor and I am on batch #92 now.
During bottling I let each group of bottles soak in StarSan for at
least two minutes, then upside down onto a home-made draining
contraption. Essentially built from wood slats from an old market
umbrella with deck screws as holding spikes.

You won't necessarily taste a low level infection, and if there is some
kind of wild yeast in the mix which is a more agressive fermenter, you
wouldn't necessarily notice it either. At any rate, cleaning won't hurt,
besides the time you spend on it.

Post by baloonon
If you're dissolving your priming sugar in a small amount of water,
it can't hurt to use greater volume of water, say 500ml. A dense
sugar- water solution may not get well distributed in the bottling
bucket. Also make sure the sugar is completely, fully dissolved. If
you want to get really hardcore, when you bottle put a number on the
cap indicating the order of that it was bottled. If your gushers and
grenades are all in the last ten bottles you capped, that's a
possible indication that you're not getting a good mix of priming
sugar into your beer before bottling.

Also a good idea. Though I already use around 12oz of water for 3oz of
corn sugar, pour that into the bottling bucket, rack the beer on top
of it without splashing, then gently "heave from the bottom" several a
sanitized pasta strainer.
What I do occasionally see is lots of fine bubbles racing through the
tube when bottling. Probably CO2, I guess.

If it's O2, it may be a factor. You may want to check the fit of your
tube and nozzles to make sure you're not getting air pulled in.

Post by baloonon
You may also want to let your bottling bucket settle for an hour or
so after transfer from the fermenter and before bottling, in order to
let disturbed yeast settle out, and don't fill bottles with the very
last of the beer in the bottling bucket, which may have a heavy
concentration of yeast.

Though if that residual yeast can't find more than the usual low sugar
concentration, could it do much damage?

I think in heavy enough volumes it can. A few days after bottle
condition has begun, you might want to check any bottles for an unusual
amount of yeast sediment and then mark the bottle caps to see if they
burst later.

Post by baloonon
You can also moderate the bottle temps by storing them in coolers
with some ice packs. Coolers are stackable, so they should be an
efficient way to store your beer.

That would be a logistical nightmare. I brew a lot so we have a nice
variety and the whole basement room is full plastic crates that can't
really be stacked.

Just spitballing here, but maybe you could glue styrofoam to the outside
of your crates and instead of putting, say 24 bottles in a crate, you
put 20 in a crate with a container of ice in the middle. Another option
might be to get an insulated hot water heater blanket to wrap your
crates filled with conditioning bottles. Or dig a cave, the way brewers
of old did.

Post by baloonon
Oh, and you may want to double check your scale. Some times they have
an issue with smaller weights and you may be adding more sugar than
you think.

That I did, scale is ok.

Joerg

2018-06-14 18:41:20 UTC

[...]

Post by baloonon
... As long as your fermenting area is clean, you may
want to think about very gently stirring your beer every few days
with a very long spoon after the main fermentation is done up until
you get to a stable FG, as long as you're not getting any air into
the mix. British brewers will do that when using some yeasts to make
sure they get a completed fermentation.

Good idea but very tough for me because the secondaries reside in the
lower section of a heavy wine fridge turned fermentation chamber.
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/brew/chamber2.JPG

You ought to be able to improvise something that would work -- I
wouldn't be surprised if you could even make something from folded
aluminum foil if you practiced on an unused carboy.

Yeah, maybe a piece of bent wire with a loop at the end that gets
spritzed with StarSan before each use.

Post by baloonon
Yeast nutrient is usually not necessary, but you may want to think
about it if there is anything unusual with your recipe or your water.
It's cheap and generally doesn't hurt and may help if your yeast is
hiccuping while it ferments. Also think about zinc -- if you Google
you should be able to find the right dietary supplement that contains
it, as well as the amount you might want to use.

Wow, I didn't know yeast was this picky of an eater :-)

Ok, I'll ask the guys next time I buy caps and stuff at Brewmeister in
Folsom.

Post by baloonon
... Ditto for a bottle of zinc tablets from the drug
store -- I think you need just a fraction of a tablet, which means a
bottle should last almost forever, and you can always just take the zinc
yourself if you decide it's not doing anything for the beer (it may
not).

Zinc tablets are on the shopping list now, too. Thanks.

Post by baloonon
You may have an infection in the bottles, and it may be worthwhile
doing a full clean before your final sanitizing, with a long soak in
something like oxygen bleach which is good at attacking bacterial
films, followed by tons of rinsing. You may want to do the same with
your bottling bucket, hoses, etc.

That is a good point. After numerous uses the bottles develop a white
layer that looks like calcification. Even boiling water doesn't get
that off, very tough. However, shouldn't one taste an infection when
drinking? I never had any beer with an off-flavor and I am on batch #92 now.
During bottling I let each group of bottles soak in StarSan for at
least two minutes, then upside down onto a home-made draining
contraption. Essentially built from wood slats from an old market
umbrella with deck screws as holding spikes.

That's going to be a lot of time because only aggressive dishwasher
powder will attack that milky layer and only with almost boiling water,
plus vigorous use of a bottle brush. It requires thick gloves because
the bottles are painfully hot. Afterwards one has to rinse a lot to make
sure the detergent is really gone. For that purpose I rip open
dishwasher detergent pouches and pour the powder into a little pill bottle.

I've got a bottle of Biofine but hesitant to use it because it can kill
all yeast in the bottles and then they wouldn't carbonate.

Post by baloonon
If you're dissolving your priming sugar in a small amount of water,
it can't hurt to use greater volume of water, say 500ml. A dense
sugar- water solution may not get well distributed in the bottling
bucket. Also make sure the sugar is completely, fully dissolved. If
you want to get really hardcore, when you bottle put a number on the
cap indicating the order of that it was bottled. If your gushers and
grenades are all in the last ten bottles you capped, that's a
possible indication that you're not getting a good mix of priming
sugar into your beer before bottling.

Also a good idea. Though I already use around 12oz of water for 3oz of
corn sugar, pour that into the bottling bucket, rack the beer on top
of it without splashing, then gently "heave from the bottom" several a
sanitized pasta strainer.
What I do occasionally see is lots of fine bubbles racing through the
tube when bottling. Probably CO2, I guess.

If it's O2, it may be a factor. You may want to check the fit of your
tube and nozzles to make sure you're not getting air pulled in.

That's all tight. I wonder how O2 would get in there. I always cart the
secondary fermenters to the bottling location the night before so they
have a chance to rest.

Post by baloonon
You may also want to let your bottling bucket settle for an hour or
so after transfer from the fermenter and before bottling, in order to
let disturbed yeast settle out, and don't fill bottles with the very
last of the beer in the bottling bucket, which may have a heavy
concentration of yeast.

Though if that residual yeast can't find more than the usual low sugar
concentration, could it do much damage?

That's another good idea. Though the burst bottles never had excessive
sediment, at least the ones where I could find the bottom in large
enough pieces.

Post by baloonon
You can also moderate the bottle temps by storing them in coolers
with some ice packs. Coolers are stackable, so they should be an
efficient way to store your beer.

That would be a logistical nightmare. I brew a lot so we have a nice
variety and the whole basement room is full plastic crates that can't
really be stacked.

That would really be too much effort, and a potential mess.

Post by baloonon
... Or dig a cave, the way brewers of old did.

That's what I essentially have. The downstairs room is half surrounded
by concrete into a hillside so it never really gets about 80F during a
summer. Most of the time it stays below 75F and still bottles grenade at
times.

Looks like I am not the only one, the commercial guys sometimes have
problems as well:

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-barrel-brewing-co-recalling-beer-because-of-exploding-bottles-2014-8

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2018-07-13 02:23:56 UTC

Post by baloonon
You may also want to let your bottling bucket settle for an hour or
so after transfer from the fermenter and before bottling, in order
to let disturbed yeast settle out, and don't fill bottles with the
very last of the beer in the bottling bucket, which may have a
heavy concentration of yeast.

Though if that residual yeast can't find more than the usual low
sugar concentration, could it do much damage?

I think in heavy enough volumes it can. A few days after bottle
condition has begun, you might want to check any bottles for an
unusual amount of yeast sediment and then mark the bottle caps to see
if they burst later.

That's another good idea. Though the burst bottles never had excessive
sediment, at least the ones where I could find the bottom in large
enough pieces.

Just a single data point, but yesterday I opened a bottle that had a
fair amount of trub in it, and despite being in the fridge undisturbed
for a good long while, it gushered and the entire bottle rapidly foamed
out. I think I've experienced that before with bottles with a lot of
sediment.

It was a bottle from the end of the bottling session when I was a bit
overagressive in trying to get the last beer out of the bucket, so a
fair amount of yeast went in. I know when people reintroduce yeast for
bottle conditioning, such as when they filter, they generally use a
small amount of new yeast, so I would also consider how much yeast is
getting through when you bottle.

It's always possible, I suppose, that something else in the trub is
causing the extra CO2 -- maybe there's extra undigested malt or sugar
somehow, maybe the hops somehow are doing something -- but I would bet
it's the yeast.

On the other hand, since you don't recall extra bottle trub in the
exploding bottles, that may not be the case, but it can't hurt to search
around for any sign that you have a yeast that doesn't floc well and
maybe a larger amount stays in solution, or it may be the case that you
will want to fine and/or cold crash for a decent period to encourage
yeast to really settle down in the fermenter before you transfer to the
bottling bucket. Just some things to think about.

Joerg

2018-07-13 15:02:28 UTC

Post by baloonon
You may also want to let your bottling bucket settle for an hour or
so after transfer from the fermenter and before bottling, in order
to let disturbed yeast settle out, and don't fill bottles with the
very last of the beer in the bottling bucket, which may have a
heavy concentration of yeast.

Though if that residual yeast can't find more than the usual low
sugar concentration, could it do much damage?

I think in heavy enough volumes it can. A few days after bottle
condition has begun, you might want to check any bottles for an
unusual amount of yeast sediment and then mark the bottle caps to see
if they burst later.

That's another good idea. Though the burst bottles never had excessive
sediment, at least the ones where I could find the bottom in large
enough pieces.

We have a lot of those gushers. It's usually one particular beer and
then all the bottles do it. They don't foam all the way out but for five
minutes or more. So the drill for those is to lay the neck on the glass
and hold the bottom in a leather dice cup we always have on the living
room table until no more foam emanates.

I've had Grolsch bottles where I re-closed them after the initial pour
and when opening a 2nd time five minutes later ... *POOF* ... foam
splattering all the way up onto the ceiling surface.

Post by baloonon
It was a bottle from the end of the bottling session when I was a bit
overagressive in trying to get the last beer out of the bucket, so a
fair amount of yeast went in. I know when people reintroduce yeast for
bottle conditioning, such as when they filter, they generally use a
small amount of new yeast, so I would also consider how much yeast is
getting through when you bottle.

I always use secondary which leaves little extra trub and then as a 3rd
vessel a bottling bucket. Sugar water goes in first, then the beer is
siphoned over with the least amount of splashing. With the hose laying
in the bottling bucket which also mixes in the sugar water quite well.
At the end I gently "heave" the fluid from the bottom with a
long-handles sanitized pasta strainer, just to make extra sure it's
really mixed in.

Post by baloonon
It's always possible, I suppose, that something else in the trub is
causing the extra CO2 -- maybe there's extra undigested malt or sugar
somehow, maybe the hops somehow are doing something -- but I would bet
it's the yeast.

Could be but in my case unlikely. I always make sure the FG is under
1.014 at the end of a 2-week primary fermentation, then the beer sits
another 2-8 weeks in secondary depending on which kind it is. Belgians
sometimes finish higher in FG after primary but I never had one of those
gush.

Post by baloonon
On the other hand, since you don't recall extra bottle trub in the
exploding bottles, that may not be the case, but it can't hurt to search
around for any sign that you have a yeast that doesn't floc well and
maybe a larger amount stays in solution, or it may be the case that you
will want to fine and/or cold crash for a decent period to encourage
yeast to really settle down in the fermenter before you transfer to the
bottling bucket. Just some things to think about.

We did find that some bottles had a minor white haze in the bottom and
sometimes on the sides. Hard like a calcification, not wipeable like
yeast haze. I can't imagine that to contribute but to make sure we now
inspect each bottle before it goes back into the empty stash. We keep a
little plastic pill can filled with dishwashing powder which I obtain by
slitting the little pouches it comes in and emptying into that can. That
stuff seems to be the only detergent that can get the haze off, even PBW
has a hard time (and would be expensive for that job). A few granules go
into a suspect bottle, very hot water (almost boiling) follows and we
let that sit there for 1/2h or so. That usually results in a pristinely
clean bottle. We shall see if that helps. It's almost the only thing
left I could imagine might contribute.

A really weird one: I had a Cream Ale where the primary fermenter got a
bit full. So it didn't all fit into secondary and then I always bottle
the remaining beer, adding a little corn sugar, a very modest amount and
commensurate with the amount of extra beer. So this resulted in one full
Grolsch bottle and another that was maybe 60% full. Opened the frist one
after 3 weeks ... rather flat. Tasted ok though, just hardly any
carbonation. Opened the 60%-filled one yesterday which should have even
less pressure because of more air in there ... *KAPOW* ... foam
immediately rose up in the bottle.

Meantime we weighed all bottles and threw the lightest ones into
recycling. We found that those are were prone to grenading. Best are the
heavy Grolsch bottles, German 500ml bottles and the small Belgian ones
like Duvel or Hoegarden. Those never grenade here.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2018-08-15 20:15:39 UTC

Following up, I bought Wyeast 3787 for the first time -- Belgian High
Gravity, supposedly the Westmalle strain, the same as White Labs 530.

Reading online about it, a lot of people say that it will create gushers
and bottle bombs if it doesn't fully ferment, you definitely want a
blowoff tube in the fermenter, and that it has the potential to go to go
from a high OG to an FG of 006 or below. It tends to go dormant if the
temp isn't kept up in the 70s and responds well to having the temp ramp
up in the later stages of fermentation. It also takes a long time to
finish up and reach the final low gravity.

Since you say your Belgians don't have problems, and you've experienced
the problem with S05, this isn't directly relevant, but it may be worth
playing around with your temps at the later stages of fermentation to
see if it helps. Supposedly at the later stages you have a low risk of
unwanted byproducts if you push the temps toward the higher range of the
recommended fermentation temp.

At any rate, I'm interested to see how this goes. I'm set to make a
Belgian Strong Golden, probably at the lower part of the ABV range. The
starter already has a great pear/apple smell coming from the airlock,
kind of like the Val Dieu Triple I just had. Hopefully I can nurse this
through full attenuation.

Joerg

2018-08-15 21:00:54 UTC

Good point. I already do that to some extent and that is out of
necessity. My fermentation chamber has an upper section for primary and
a lower to secondary. I built it this way to have some chance of
cold-crashing (this former wine fridge won't go below 45F and only in
the bottom). Both sections are on the same compressor and thus the same
thermostat. The usual routine is this:

On bottling day I also rack off two beers to secondary and clean the
primary fermenters. The bottom where the secondaries are is then usually
at 63-65F. The next day I brew, the two primaries get filled and placed
on the top shelf. By now I've got two Chapman stainless steel 7-gallon
fermenters for that.

In order to avoid off-flavors I turned down the thermostat so the upper
section runs at 63F, the lower at 58F. This because the wort is warmer
than 63F since the fermentation generates a surprising amount of heat
and I want to keep that below 70F for US-05.

Once fermentation throttles back 4-5 days later I gradually raise temps
until it is 68F up to and 65F in bottom where the secondaries are. I've
got a thermometer radio link into the living room so I can see when the
fermentation starts to taper off.

The night before bottling I carry the secondaries outside where they
warm up some more and can rest from the transport shaking for at least
12h. Not much airlock bubbling going on then.

Post by baloonon
Since you say your Belgians don't have problems, and you've experienced
the problem with S05, this isn't directly relevant, but it may be worth
playing around with your temps at the later stages of fermentation to
see if it helps. Supposedly at the later stages you have a low risk of
unwanted byproducts if you push the temps toward the higher range of the
recommended fermentation temp.

I can try that next week by taking out the secondaries earlier. It's
75-80F downstairs right now. Or do you think that's too high? I'd really
like to avoid off-flavors.

Post by baloonon
At any rate, I'm interested to see how this goes. I'm set to make a
Belgian Strong Golden, probably at the lower part of the ABV range. The
starter already has a great pear/apple smell coming from the airlock,
kind of like the Val Dieu Triple I just had. Hopefully I can nurse this
through full attenuation.

I made a Quadrupel recently but I am the only one drinking it. For my
wife and for our friends 9.5% ABV is just too much. That beer is totally
behaved in the bottles, no gushing, no excessive head, no bottles have
grenaded.

My impression by now is that dry-hopped beers seem to be especially
susceptible to becoming gushers. With some I have to re-close the
Grolsch bottle after first pour. When I re-opened to contnue pouring ...
*KAPOOF* ... splat ... foam splotch under the ceiling. Had to get the
ladder and clean that up. Plus one of them managed to blow the bottom
off a sturdy Grolsch bottle.

So far my favorite is Belgian Tripel. I lived a mile from the Belgian
border, was over there all the time and began to miss that taste.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg

2018-08-15 21:37:05 UTC

Good point. I already do that to some extent and that is out of
necessity. My fermentation chamber has an upper section for primary and
a lower to secondary. I built it this way to have some chance of
cold-crashing (this former wine fridge won't go below 45F and only in
the bottom). Both sections are on the same compressor and thus the same
On bottling day I also rack off two beers to secondary and clean the
primary fermenters. The bottom where the secondaries are is then usually
at 63-65F. The next day I brew, the two primaries get filled and placed
on the top shelf. By now I've got two Chapman stainless steel 7-gallon
fermenters for that.
In order to avoid off-flavors I turned down the thermostat so the upper
section runs at 63F, the lower at 58F. This because the wort is warmer
than 63F since the fermentation generates a surprising amount of heat
and I want to keep that below 70F for US-05.
Once fermentation throttles back 4-5 days later I gradually raise temps
until it is 68F up to and 65F in bottom where the secondaries are. I've
got a thermometer radio link into the living room so I can see when the
fermentation starts to taper off.
The night before bottling I carry the secondaries outside where they
warm up some more and can rest from the transport shaking for at least
12h. Not much airlock bubbling going on then.

I can try that next week by taking out the secondaries earlier. It's
75-80F downstairs right now. Or do you think that's too high? I'd really
like to avoid off-flavors.

I made a Quadrupel recently but I am the only one drinking it. For my
wife and for our friends 9.5% ABV is just too much. That beer is totally
behaved in the bottles, no gushing, no excessive head, no bottles have
grenaded.
My impression by now is that dry-hopped beers seem to be especially
susceptible to becoming gushers. With some I have to re-close the
Grolsch bottle after first pour. When I re-opened to contnue pouring ...
*KAPOOF* ... splat ... foam splotch under the ceiling. Had to get the
ladder and clean that up. Plus one of them managed to blow the bottom
off a sturdy Grolsch bottle.
So far my favorite is Belgian Tripel. I lived a mile from the Belgian
border, was over there all the time and began to miss that taste.

P.S.: I am re-using US-05 yeast on many beers by harvesting trub. A
small quantity then goes back into a new batch of beer and from the rest
we make bread. I never go past 3rd generation and, running a database on
the PC, never found a correlation between grenading bottles and yeast
re-use.

Last week I made my 100th batch, not counting a few back when I was in
my 20's. Woohoo!

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2018-08-27 23:40:04 UTC

Post by Joerg
P.S.: I am re-using US-05 yeast on many beers by harvesting trub. A
small quantity then goes back into a new batch of beer and from the
rest we make bread. I never go past 3rd generation and, running a
database on the PC, never found a correlation between grenading
bottles and yeast re-use.

For what it's worth, you may want to try Nottingham dry yeast instead of
US05. It's also a pretty neutral ale yeast. I don't think the temp ranges
are identical, so you may get different flavors at the high end of one than
at the same temp for the other, but if you can search the ideal temps for
Nottingham you may get a result you like without the gushers.

Joerg

2018-08-28 00:47:43 UTC

Thanks for the hint. Midwest has it:

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/lallemand-nottingham-ale-11-grams

Durn, just ordered a lot of stuff there but it already shipped today.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Mark Curry

2018-06-13 19:34:11 UTC