BIAB question, two bags side by side ok?

Post by Joerg
Later this year I plan to move to BIAB for some of my more regular
brews. However, lower back issues make it risky for me to lift a large
soggy bag out of the pot while slightly bent over. At my outdoor brew
spot I can easily build a hoist but not inside where I brew in the winter.
My 13-gallon aluminum pot is about 16" in diameter and has a removable
false bottom at the two gallons level or roughly 2" above the bottom.
A bit high but it otherwise seems almost ideal for BIAB. It was meant
to be a tamale steamer. I was thinking about building something with
two wooden slats across the middle, resting on the rim but sunk down
via wide aluminum hooks so the lid will fit during the mash. This
could hold the perimeter of the bags in the middle. Then I thought
about using two paint strainer bags side by side. One alone will
likely not be wide enough for this pot anyhow and that way I could
lift out one bag at a time, cutting the weight into half. The plan is
to largely do full boil volume mash and no or very little sparge. For
dripping out and squeezing I could finagle some kind of gin pole that
hooks to the side of the pot and holds a bag for a while.

I'm not sure I can visualize what you're saying, but I don't see any
reason why you couldn't use two bags, even three or four if lifting one
is an issue.

If your bags don't have drawstrings, some simple cotton string tied with
slip knots that you clip to the pot handle ought to be enough. You're
not pulling the bags up by the strings, just raising the top of the bag
above the water so you can grab the bag itself and pull it out.

One thing that helps with efficiency is if you're able to get to the
grain at least once around 10-15 minutes into the soak and give it a
stir to make sure everything is circulating. It would be a little bit
more of a pain to do that with multiple bags, but you're only talking
about adding a few minutes to process, so not a big deal. To be honest,
I rarely stir. Or if you wanted, you could pull up the bags a bit and
dunk up and down a bit like teabags.

I find the biggest things to get good efficiency are first getting a
really fine grind on the grain, to the point where a lot of it is as
fine as flour; second, making sure that the grain is well mixed
initially so there aren't any clumps of grain. It just means being
patient and not adding too much grain at a time to the water and
stirring well, maybe a five minute process. I pretty much always hit
70% or more with just those two things.

If you've got multiple bags I can see how the initial mixing of grain
into the water might be a little tricky if the bag doesn't fit well over
the rim of the pot, but I'm sure it's a solvable problem with the right
clips. Another option is to buy some mesh and sew your own bags to fit,
which shouldn't be that big of a deal since appearances aren't
important. I don't think the mesh would cost more than $10 or so.

Post by Joerg
Do you guys see any problems with this method?
The other thing I always wondered about is why some BIAB folks use two
stacked bags, one stuffed into the other. Are they concerned about the
seam ripping open and dumping all the grains into the wort?

I've never done that, but I assume you're right that it's to avoid a
single bag tearing. I use two bags in two pots, and I've never had that
problem with 4 to 7 pounds of grain plus water per bag.

Joerg

2017-04-10 20:29:45 UTC

I'm not sure I can visualize what you're saying, but I don't see any
reason why you couldn't use two bags, even three or four if lifting one
is an issue.

Essentially two bags side by side in the same kettle. With regular
off-the-shelf paint strainer bags I couldn't do it any other way because
those bags won't reach around the rim of such a large kettle.

Post by baloonon
If your bags don't have drawstrings, some simple cotton string tied with
slip knots that you clip to the pot handle ought to be enough. You're
not pulling the bags up by the strings, just raising the top of the bag
above the water so you can grab the bag itself and pull it out.

I don't have any bags yet but I assume it would be those:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Blue-Hawk-2-Pack-Plastic-Bucket-Paint-Strainers-Fits-Container-Size-5-Gallon/1008387

They don't say which material it is, other than "plastic" and that they
fit a 5-gallon vessel whatever they mean with that. Do you think these
are good?

Post by baloonon
One thing that helps with efficiency is if you're able to get to the
grain at least once around 10-15 minutes into the soak and give it a
stir to make sure everything is circulating. It would be a little bit
more of a pain to do that with multiple bags, but you're only talking
about adding a few minutes to process, so not a big deal. To be honest,
I rarely stir. Or if you wanted, you could pull up the bags a bit and
dunk up and down a bit like teabags.

I'd almost have to do the dunking but no problem, I do that with the
steeping bags already. After 3-4 uses the muslin bags develop holes so I
hope paint strainer bags are more sturdy.

Post by baloonon
I find the biggest things to get good efficiency are first getting a
really fine grind on the grain, to the point where a lot of it is as
fine as flour;

That is why I want to also buy a two-roller grain crusher with the
roller spacing adjustable. On EBay they sell them for around $100 and
unlike a Corona mill they come with a fairly large funnel. The funnel is
helpful because I am going to have to do that job by myself most of the
time. Then plywood, a few screws, an electric drill and all should be
peachy. If needed I could run the grains through there twice.

Post by baloonon
... second, making sure that the grain is well mixed
initially so there aren't any clumps of grain. It just means being
patient and not adding too much grain at a time to the water and
stirring well, maybe a five minute process. I pretty much always hit
70% or more with just those two things.
If you've got multiple bags I can see how the initial mixing of grain
into the water might be a little tricky if the bag doesn't fit well over
the rim of the pot, but I'm sure it's a solvable problem with the right
clips. Another option is to buy some mesh and sew your own bags to fit,
which shouldn't be that big of a deal since appearances aren't
important. I don't think the mesh would cost more than $10 or so.

Both my wife and I aren't good with sewing and we may have to find
someone to do that. However, I could also fill regular off-the-shelf
5-gallon paint strainer bags first and then dunk them in. Of course, I'd
have to make sure not to cause clumping. And that my wife won't see all
the grain dust settling onto the tile before I had a chance to clean
that up :-)

I've never done that, but I assume you're right that it's to avoid a
single bag tearing. I use two bags in two pots, and I've never had that
problem with 4 to 7 pounds of grain plus water per bag.

Then I should be ok. I guess the max would be around 10lbs per bag for a
5-gallon batch of a really big beer.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-04-11 19:22:55 UTC

Post by Joerg
Later this year I plan to move to BIAB for some of my more regular
brews. However, lower back issues make it risky for me to lift a
large soggy bag out of the pot while slightly bent over. At my
outdoor brew spot I can easily build a hoist but not inside where I
brew in the winter.
My 13-gallon aluminum pot is about 16" in diameter and has a
removable false bottom at the two gallons level or roughly 2" above
the bottom. A bit high but it otherwise seems almost ideal for BIAB.
It was meant to be a tamale steamer. I was thinking about building
something with two wooden slats across the middle, resting on the
rim but sunk down via wide aluminum hooks so the lid will fit during
the mash. This could hold the perimeter of the bags in the middle.
Then I thought about using two paint strainer bags side by side. One
alone will likely not be wide enough for this pot anyhow and that
way I could lift out one bag at a time, cutting the weight into
half. The plan is to largely do full boil volume mash and no or very
little sparge. For dripping out and squeezing I could finagle some
kind of gin pole that hooks to the side of the pot and holds a bag
for a while.

I'm not sure I can visualize what you're saying, but I don't see any
reason why you couldn't use two bags, even three or four if lifting
one is an issue.

Essentially two bags side by side in the same kettle. With regular
off-the-shelf paint strainer bags I couldn't do it any other way
because those bags won't reach around the rim of such a large kettle.

Post by baloonon
If your bags don't have drawstrings, some simple cotton string tied
with slip knots that you clip to the pot handle ought to be enough.
You're not pulling the bags up by the strings, just raising the top
of the bag above the water so you can grab the bag itself and pull it
out.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Blue-Hawk-2-Pack-Plastic-Bucket-Paint-

Strainers-Fits-Container-Size-5-Gallon/1008387

Post by Joerg
They don't say which material it is, other than "plastic" and that
they fit a 5-gallon vessel whatever they mean with that. Do you think
these are good?

Mine are from Sherwin Williams, but I'm sure they're all the same. I
think they're all made of nylon mesh.

If it doesn't fit over the pot, I think what you ought to be able to do
is cut a couple of notches in a piece of wood so it rests on the rim in
a couple of places and spans the pot, maybe across the middle. Use a
couple of big binder clips to hold one side of the bag to the wood. Use
a couple to hold the other side to the side of the pot. Add your grain
and stir, close the bag and tie the drawstring to a handle or clip it to
the side of the pot. Then repeat.

Post by baloonon
One thing that helps with efficiency is if you're able to get to the
grain at least once around 10-15 minutes into the soak and give it a
stir to make sure everything is circulating. It would be a little
bit more of a pain to do that with multiple bags, but you're only
talking about adding a few minutes to process, so not a big deal. To
be honest, I rarely stir. Or if you wanted, you could pull up the
bags a bit and dunk up and down a bit like teabags.

I'd almost have to do the dunking but no problem, I do that with the
steeping bags already. After 3-4 uses the muslin bags develop holes so
I hope paint strainer bags are more sturdy.

I'd avoid bothering with dunking unless you have an efficiency problem.
I just let my grain soak and I get good efficiency. My bags last a long
time, I think several dozen uses or more. I think the main risk is
melting if they touch a flame or heating element, but that's never
happened to me.

Post by baloonon
I find the biggest things to get good efficiency are first getting a
really fine grind on the grain, to the point where a lot of it is as
fine as flour;

That is why I want to also buy a two-roller grain crusher with the
roller spacing adjustable. On EBay they sell them for around $100 and
unlike a Corona mill they come with a fairly large funnel. The funnel
is helpful because I am going to have to do that job by myself most of
the time. Then plywood, a few screws, an electric drill and all should
be peachy. If needed I could run the grains through there twice.

Post by baloonon
... second, making sure that the grain is well mixed
initially so there aren't any clumps of grain. It just means being
patient and not adding too much grain at a time to the water and
stirring well, maybe a five minute process. I pretty much always hit
70% or more with just those two things.
If you've got multiple bags I can see how the initial mixing of grain
into the water might be a little tricky if the bag doesn't fit well
over the rim of the pot, but I'm sure it's a solvable problem with
the right clips. Another option is to buy some mesh and sew your own
bags to fit, which shouldn't be that big of a deal since appearances
aren't important. I don't think the mesh would cost more than $10 or
so.

Both my wife and I aren't good with sewing and we may have to find
someone to do that. However, I could also fill regular off-the-shelf
5-gallon paint strainer bags first and then dunk them in. Of course,
I'd have to make sure not to cause clumping. And that my wife won't
see all the grain dust settling onto the tile before I had a chance to
clean that up :-)

I think it's pretty much impossible to avoid clumps if you fill the bag
with dry grain and then dunk into the water. You really need to stir
the grain into the water gradually. So that avoids the dust on the
floor problem....

Post by Joerg
Do you guys see any problems with this method?
The other thing I always wondered about is why some BIAB folks use
two stacked bags, one stuffed into the other. Are they concerned
about the seam ripping open and dumping all the grains into the
wort?

I've never done that, but I assume you're right that it's to avoid a
single bag tearing. I use two bags in two pots, and I've never had
that problem with 4 to 7 pounds of grain plus water per bag.

Then I should be ok. I guess the max would be around 10lbs per bag for
a 5-gallon batch of a really big beer.

You can always use three or four bags if it's a concern. It may be
worth having an extra one or two on hand in case one breaks unexpectedly
anyway.

Joerg

2017-04-12 16:35:48 UTC

[...]

Post by baloonon
If your bags don't have drawstrings, some simple cotton string tied
with slip knots that you clip to the pot handle ought to be enough.
You're not pulling the bags up by the strings, just raising the top
of the bag above the water so you can grab the bag itself and pull it
out.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Blue-Hawk-2-Pack-Plastic-Bucket-Paint-

Strainers-Fits-Container-Size-5-Gallon/1008387

Post by Joerg
They don't say which material it is, other than "plastic" and that
they fit a 5-gallon vessel whatever they mean with that. Do you think
these are good?

Mine are from Sherwin Williams, but I'm sure they're all the same. I
think they're all made of nylon mesh.

Great, there is a Sherwin Williams store right next to the bike path I
use a lot. Where we buy all our paint when they have their 40% off sale.
Lately they didn't go past 30%.

Post by Joerg
If it doesn't fit over the pot, I think what you ought to be able to do
is cut a couple of notches in a piece of wood so it rests on the rim in
a couple of places and spans the pot, maybe across the middle. Use a
couple of big binder clips to hold one side of the bag to the wood. Use
a couple to hold the other side to the side of the pot. Add your grain
and stir, close the bag and tie the drawstring to a handle or clip it to
the side of the pot. Then repeat.

That's what I was thinking with the "sunk divider", so I can still close
the lid. Like the aluminum carrier I made for the meat thermometer, at
the other end a similarly bent aluminum piece and then a divider screwed
into both 1" down below the rim of the kettle.

Loading Image...

The thermometer would have to stay in anyhow to monitor the mash
temperature and give it a push if it drops.

Post by baloonon
One thing that helps with efficiency is if you're able to get to the
grain at least once around 10-15 minutes into the soak and give it a
stir to make sure everything is circulating. It would be a little
bit more of a pain to do that with multiple bags, but you're only
talking about adding a few minutes to process, so not a big deal. To
be honest, I rarely stir. Or if you wanted, you could pull up the
bags a bit and dunk up and down a bit like teabags.

I'd almost have to do the dunking but no problem, I do that with the
steeping bags already. After 3-4 uses the muslin bags develop holes so
I hope paint strainer bags are more sturdy.

I'll use the false bottom that came with the tamale steamer pot. If its
height at 2" or 2 gallons is too high I'll cut off its rim and mount
little feet to it.

[...]

Post by baloonon
... second, making sure that the grain is well mixed
initially so there aren't any clumps of grain. It just means being
patient and not adding too much grain at a time to the water and
stirring well, maybe a five minute process. I pretty much always hit
70% or more with just those two things.
If you've got multiple bags I can see how the initial mixing of grain
into the water might be a little tricky if the bag doesn't fit well
over the rim of the pot, but I'm sure it's a solvable problem with
the right clips. Another option is to buy some mesh and sew your own
bags to fit, which shouldn't be that big of a deal since appearances
aren't important. I don't think the mesh would cost more than $10 or
so.

Both my wife and I aren't good with sewing and we may have to find
someone to do that. However, I could also fill regular off-the-shelf
5-gallon paint strainer bags first and then dunk them in. Of course,
I'd have to make sure not to cause clumping. And that my wife won't
see all the grain dust settling onto the tile before I had a chance to
clean that up :-)

Good point, thanks. No dunking then, has to be stirred in.