Specialty grains for farm animals

[Joerg]

While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of specialty
grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was pitch black IPA
grains.

Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I have
to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains which
have lots of remaining protein in them.

Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a pan
in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of
specialty
grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was pitch black IPA
grains.
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I have
to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains which
have lots of remaining protein in them.
Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a pan
in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

I'm sure they're fine to feed to animals, with the main concern I can
think of is knocking them off their regular diet. It's the same way
that you want to be careful about giving very much tuna to a cat because
it doesn't have all of the nutrients of regular cat food.

The easiest way to dry them out is to give them to the friend and tell
him to deal with it. After that, I'd recommend spreading between a
couple of screens and letting them dry in the sun. You could get a
clear plastic bin, cut out most of the lid and bottom, and then attach
screens over the holes, flipping the assembly a couple of times a day.
To be honest, though, I think the best solution after telling the friend
to take care of it is composting them and giving the chickens the scraps
from the veggies you grow and some worms from the compost heap.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of specialty
grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was pitch black IPA
grains.
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I have
to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains which
have lots of remaining protein in them.
Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a pan
in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

I'm sure they're fine to feed to animals, with the main concern I can
think of is knocking them off their regular diet. It's the same way
that you want to be careful about giving very much tuna to a cat because
it doesn't have all of the nutrients of regular cat food.
The easiest way to dry them out is to give them to the friend and tell
him to deal with it. After that, I'd recommend spreading between a
couple of screens and letting them dry in the sun. You could get a
clear plastic bin, cut out most of the lid and bottom, and then attach
screens over the holes, flipping the assembly a couple of times a day.
To be honest, though, I think the best solution after telling the friend
to take care of it is composting them and giving the chickens the scraps
from the veggies you grow and some worms from the compost heap.

Good idea, I think I am going to leave it to him. The IPA grains are now
dry after several days in front of the pellet stove but now my pan one
of my wife's Teflon spoons are all gunked up. I hope I can get that off.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
Good idea, I think I am going to leave it to him. The IPA grains are now
dry after several days in front of the pellet stove but now my pan one
of my wife's Teflon spoons are all gunked up. I hope I can get that off.

On a related note, this is a blog piece from today about a British brewery
that gave its horses some of the stout they had to haul:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017/01/horses-who-like-stout.html

It quotes a report about giving a pint to a horse -- I would guess giving
one beer to a one ton horse wouldn't have resulted in a DWI.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Good idea, I think I am going to leave it to him. The IPA grains are now
dry after several days in front of the pellet stove but now my pan one
of my wife's Teflon spoons are all gunked up. I hope I can get that off.

On a related note, this is a blog piece from today about a British brewery
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017/01/horses-who-like-stout.html
It quotes a report about giving a pint to a horse -- I would guess giving
one beer to a one ton horse wouldn't have resulted in a DWI.

We once had a keg of Guinness for a party. The tap leaked a little so a
small drip tray was placed underneath. Yet it never filled up. Later
that evening we noticed that our Rottweiler mix made regular treks to
that little dish and slurped up the contents.

[T.J. Higgins]

Post by Joerg
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I have
to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains which
have lots of remaining protein in them.

On a tour of one of the local micro-breweries I asked them what they do
with their spent grains. They give them to local farmers to use for
animal feed. So yes it's fine to give spent grains to farm animals.

Can't help you with the drying issue.

[Joerg]

Post by T.J. Higgins

Post by Joerg
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I have
to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains which
have lots of remaining protein in them.

On a tour of one of the local micro-breweries I asked them what they do
with their spent grains. They give them to local farmers to use for
animal feed. So yes it's fine to give spent grains to farm animals.

It's the same with our brew pubs. Except for one who give his to a bread
maker. However, it's all light-colored "normal" grains. I often have the
dark stuff.

Post by T.J. Higgins
Can't help you with the drying issue.

As baloonon suggested I'll let my friend do that next time. I guess I'll
have to put them in the freezer until I can hand them over so no mold
develops.

[rb]

Post by Joerg
While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of specialty
grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was pitch black IPA
grains.
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I have
to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains which
have lots of remaining protein in them.
Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a pan
in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

split grains already mashed are fine. the problem arises when
sheep/cows/horses, probably not so much poultry stumble upon lots of
whole grains and gorge themselves.
The grains can swell inside the animal upon exposure to moisture......
rb

[Joerg]

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of specialty
grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was pitch black IPA
grains.
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I have
to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains which
have lots of remaining protein in them.
Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a pan
in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

split grains already mashed are fine. the problem arises when
sheep/cows/horses, probably not so much poultry stumble upon lots of
whole grains and gorge themselves.
The grains can swell inside the animal upon exposure to moisture......

These are all crushed. The baffler is that our friends' chickens did not
like the grains. I can't understand, that is almost like a kid not
liking chocolate.

So ... I just learned at a brewpub on Saturday that the owner/brewer
turns them into crackers which they offer as an appetizer along with a
creamy dip. That is something I'd like to try. Probably one of these
recipes:

https://chefs-table.homebrewchef.com/recipe/homemade-brewers-crackers-with-spent-grain/

http://brooklynbrewshop.com/themash/recipe-spent-grain-cheddar-crackers/

https://www.soba.org.nz/article/5341/

Today's grains are very dark, from a Stout. Not sure how that will taste
but we can try.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of
specialty grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was
pitch black IPA grains.
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I
have to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains
which have lots of remaining protein in them.
Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a
pan in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

split grains already mashed are fine. the problem arises when
sheep/cows/horses, probably not so much poultry stumble upon lots of
whole grains and gorge themselves.
The grains can swell inside the animal upon exposure to
moisture......

I hadn't realized that eating whole grain can be a problem for
livestock, although it looks like the problem isn't swelling but issues
with gut microbes not being able to handle a large volume of whole
grain:

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/winterstorm/winter-storm-information-farm-and-
ranch-information/farm-and-ranch-information-cattle-nutrition/feeding-
grain-to-stock-cows

Post by Joerg
These are all crushed. The baffler is that our friends' chickens did
not like the grains. I can't understand, that is almost like a kid not
liking chocolate.

In my limited experience, chickens are weird. They get suspicious about
random things and just don't trust them. They'll suddenly refuse to eat
their feed from a particular bowl, but if you switch it to a different
bowl, they have no problem. Or they may suddenly develop an aversion to
a particular person for no discernable reason (to humans, at least).

Post by Joerg
So ... I just learned at a brewpub on Saturday that the owner/brewer
turns them into crackers which they offer as an appetizer along with a
creamy dip. That is something I'd like to try. Probably one of these
https://chefs-table.homebrewchef.com/recipe/homemade-brewers-crackers-

with-spent-grain/

Post by Joerg
http://brooklynbrewshop.com/themash/recipe-spent-grain-cheddar-

crackers

Post by Joerg
https://www.soba.org.nz/article/5341/
Today's grains are very dark, from a Stout. Not sure how that will
taste but we can try.

The cheese cracker recipe looks good, although I don't think the volume
in those recipes would make much of a dent in the leftover grain in a
single batch.

[rb]

Post by baloonon

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of
specialty grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was
pitch black IPA grains.
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I
have to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains
which have lots of remaining protein in them.
Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a
pan in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

split grains already mashed are fine. the problem arises when
sheep/cows/horses, probably not so much poultry stumble upon lots of
whole grains and gorge themselves.
The grains can swell inside the animal upon exposure to
moisture......

I hadn't realized that eating whole grain can be a problem for
livestock, although it looks like the problem isn't swelling but issues
with gut microbes not being able to handle a large volume of whole
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/winterstorm/winter-storm-information-farm-and-
ranch-information/farm-and-ranch-information-cattle-nutrition/feeding-
grain-to-stock-cows

[snip]
son of a gun, there you go. grow up all your life having been told one
thing and never questioning it.
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/101338/grain-poisoning-of-cattle-and-sheep.pdf

[baloonon]

Post by rb

Post by baloonon

Post by rb
split grains already mashed are fine. the problem arises when
sheep/cows/horses, probably not so much poultry stumble upon lots
of whole grains and gorge themselves.
The grains can swell inside the animal upon exposure to
moisture......

I hadn't realized that eating whole grain can be a problem for
livestock, although it looks like the problem isn't swelling but
issues with gut microbes not being able to handle a large volume of
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/winterstorm/winter-storm-information-farm-

and-ranch-information/farm-and-ranch-information-cattle-
nutrition/feeding-grain-to-stock-cows

Post by rb
[snip]
son of a gun, there you go. grow up all your life having been told one
thing and never questioning it.
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/101338/grain-

poisoning-of-cattle-and-sheep.pdf

When you had posted that bit about whole grains being bad for cattle, I
assumed it was a variation on the old wives tale that you shouldn't
throw rice at weddings because birds will eat it and their stomachs will
explode.

Which in turn is a variation on the old legend that hauling rice was
deadly for ships because a small leak would make the rice swell and that
would burst the hull of the ship.

So I was a little surprised to see that whole grains are in fact a
problem for cattle, but as it turns out there is a lot of validity to
that.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by rb

Post by Joerg
While I am still an extract brewer that's going to change to BIAB
hopefully this year. Some brews already have a large amount of
specialty grains that I steep in. Yesterday one of the loads was
pitch black IPA grains.
Are they all ok to feed to chickens and other farm animals or do I
have to toss some? A friend has chickens and they'd love the grains
which have lots of remaining protein in them.
Any idea how to safely store them? I am currently drying them in a
pan in front of the pellet stove but that's messy. Freezer?

split grains already mashed are fine. the problem arises when
sheep/cows/horses, probably not so much poultry stumble upon lots of
whole grains and gorge themselves.
The grains can swell inside the animal upon exposure to
moisture......

I hadn't realized that eating whole grain can be a problem for
livestock, although it looks like the problem isn't swelling but issues
with gut microbes not being able to handle a large volume of whole
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/winterstorm/winter-storm-information-farm-and-
ranch-information/farm-and-ranch-information-cattle-nutrition/feeding-
grain-to-stock-cows

Post by Joerg
These are all crushed. The baffler is that our friends' chickens did
not like the grains. I can't understand, that is almost like a kid not
liking chocolate.

In my limited experience, chickens are weird. They get suspicious about
random things and just don't trust them. They'll suddenly refuse to eat
their feed from a particular bowl, but if you switch it to a different
bowl, they have no problem. Or they may suddenly develop an aversion to
a particular person for no discernable reason (to humans, at least).

However. the eggs we get from them are much better than from the grocery
store so I won't complain. My wife pickles them and I usually have one
per evening. And two on Saturday mornings with bacon, bread, hashbrowns
and salsa.

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
So ... I just learned at a brewpub on Saturday that the owner/brewer
turns them into crackers which they offer as an appetizer along with a
creamy dip. That is something I'd like to try. Probably one of these
https://chefs-table.homebrewchef.com/recipe/homemade-brewers-crackers-

with-spent-grain/

Post by Joerg
http://brooklynbrewshop.com/themash/recipe-spent-grain-cheddar-

crackers

Post by Joerg
https://www.soba.org.nz/article/5341/
Today's grains are very dark, from a Stout. Not sure how that will
taste but we can try.

The cheese cracker recipe looks good, although I don't think the volume
in those recipes would make much of a dent in the leftover grain in a
single batch.

My wife tried it yesterday and the result was not good. The taste was
good but the dough could not be rolled out thinly and it also would not
harden into crackers in the oven.

Oh well. At least my American Wheat with clover honey added after the
end of boil has now started to ferment. Much slower than usual but it
started. The yeast in the Stout (also added honey at end of boil) is
still thinking about it.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon
In my limited experience, chickens are weird. They get
suspicious about random things and just don't trust them.
They'll suddenly refuse to eat their feed from a particular
bowl, but if you switch it to a different bowl, they have
no problem. Or they may suddenly develop an aversion to
a particular person for no discernable reason (to humans,
at least).

However. the eggs we get from them are much better than from
the grocery store so I won't complain. My wife pickles them
and I usually have one per evening. And two on Saturday
mornings with bacon, bread, hashbrowns and salsa.

I wish I had access to fresh eggs, but I have no interest in raising
chickens myself. There are too many feral cats, foxes, raccoons,
snakes, rats, hawks and owls around me, and I don't want to deal with
the aftermath. My grandparents raised them, and I remember stories
about semi-regular need to cull the flock due to sick or injured hens.
Although I realize taking care of your own chickens and dealing with the
issues yourself probably has some moral consistency that's missing from
buying them from a store.

Post by Joerg
Oh well. At least my American Wheat with clover honey added after the
end of boil has now started to ferment. Much slower than usual but it
started. The yeast in the Stout (also added honey at end of boil) is
still thinking about it.

My recollection (possibly faulty) is that honey slows down the onset of
fermentation, but a quick look around online isn't confirming that, so
don't take my word for it.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon
In my limited experience, chickens are weird. They get
suspicious about random things and just don't trust them.
They'll suddenly refuse to eat their feed from a particular
bowl, but if you switch it to a different bowl, they have
no problem. Or they may suddenly develop an aversion to
a particular person for no discernable reason (to humans,
at least).

However. the eggs we get from them are much better than from
the grocery store so I won't complain. My wife pickles them
and I usually have one per evening. And two on Saturday
mornings with bacon, bread, hashbrowns and salsa.

I wish I had access to fresh eggs, but I have no interest in raising
chickens myself. There are too many feral cats, foxes, raccoons,
snakes, rats, hawks and owls around me, and I don't want to deal with
the aftermath. My grandparents raised them, and I remember stories
about semi-regular need to cull the flock due to sick or injured hens.
Although I realize taking care of your own chickens and dealing with the
issues yourself probably has some moral consistency that's missing from
buying them from a store.

Our neighbor lost three flocks (completely). One to foxes, the other to
a coyote. The coyote must have had an entitlement mentality. Looked like
a peaceful guy and he left the day after he ate the last chicken.

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Oh well. At least my American Wheat with clover honey added after the
end of boil has now started to ferment. Much slower than usual but it
started. The yeast in the Stout (also added honey at end of boil) is
still thinking about it.

My recollection (possibly faulty) is that honey slows down the onset of
fermentation, but a quick look around online isn't confirming that, so
don't take my word for it.

This morning it was about 35 hours so I shook the fermenter with the
Stout for half a minute in several directions. Afterwards the air lock
started burping. Shining a bright flashlight from behind the white
bucket also showed that some kraeusen had already developed, just not
much CO2 pressure.

The fermentation did indeed start sluggishly, also on the American
Wheat. I may have to give these two beer more than 10 days in primary.
Not a problem because I usually have four fermenters going
simultaneously, two of them being secondary. Whenever two beers have
been transferred I usually brew two more within the same week. Just so
we won't run out of beer 8-)

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
Our neighbor lost three flocks (completely). One to foxes, the
other to a coyote. The coyote must have had an entitlement
mentality. Looked like a peaceful guy and he left the day
after he ate the last chicken.

The New Yorker had an article this week about the mountain lions who have
moved inside LA city limits. I live inside a city, and I'm glad we have
foxes and deer (and supposedly coyotes) living in my area, but I'm really
glad we don't have mountain lions, or alligators like they do down South.
I like not having predators big enough to eat me.

I could see the appeal, though, of having enough space to grow your own
hops. Freshly brewed beer made with fresh hops is something I'd love to
have some day, but I haven't managed to find it at any local breweries, and
I suspect bottled stuff sold in stores isn't really the same.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Our neighbor lost three flocks (completely). One to foxes, the
other to a coyote. The coyote must have had an entitlement
mentality. Looked like a peaceful guy and he left the day
after he ate the last chicken.

The New Yorker had an article this week about the mountain lions who have
moved inside LA city limits. I live inside a city, and I'm glad we have
foxes and deer (and supposedly coyotes) living in my area, but I'm really
glad we don't have mountain lions, or alligators like they do down South.
I like not having predators big enough to eat me.

We have them here. A mountain lion attacked a neighbor's dog and the dog
died same day. This mountain lion hung out on the mountain bike trail I
often ride:

http://www.inedc.com/1-5954.html

The trail is the only way to get to Placerville by bicycle. I like doing
that for exercise reasons. To work off the belly that the beer keeps
putting back on :-)

Post by baloonon
I could see the appeal, though, of having enough space to grow your own
hops. Freshly brewed beer made with fresh hops is something I'd love to
have some day, but I haven't managed to find it at any local breweries, and
I suspect bottled stuff sold in stores isn't really the same.

My mountain bike buddy grows Cascade and Centennial hops for fun. Just a
few houses down the street. Some day I'll use his hops but so far I am
still an extract brewer working from recipe kits. Those always come with
hop pellets.

My goal is to do at least some beers using BIAB this year. It'll be a
challenge because I always brew two batches on the same day and BIAB
will add 1-1/2 to 2 hours to a session. Mainly because all I have as a
heat source are two 1kW electric cooktop burners side-by-side, plugged
into different circuits. Bringing 6 gallons to a boil takes almost two
hours. I don't even want to think about heating 8-9 gallons for BIAB (yet).

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
My goal is to do at least some beers using BIAB this year. It'll be a
challenge because I always brew two batches on the same day and BIAB
will add 1-1/2 to 2 hours to a session. Mainly because all I have as a
heat source are two 1kW electric cooktop burners side-by-side, plugged
into different circuits. Bringing 6 gallons to a boil takes almost two
hours. I don't even want to think about heating 8-9 gallons for BIAB (yet).

I'm starting to be tempted to buy a sous vide circulator by companies
like Anova now that the price is dropping below $100, and I'm sure
they'll fall even lower. I've read that people are using them to
maintain precise temps for mashing and also to greatly increase the
speed of bringing wort to a boil.

Immersion heating sticks made for brewing are another option, although
they sound like they need a lot more hands on involvement in setting up.
Also, the sous vide circulators let you do sous vide cooking, of course.
I haven't tried it, but some people swear it's tremendous.

It also might be worth checking second hand stores for one of those big
electric coffee urns -- they can often bring gallons of water to close
to boiling temp pretty quickly, and I've seen them for sale for very
little in thrift stores.

You can put them on a shelf higher than the burner and let gravity
tranfer to the pot, and a timer can be used to get the water ready
before you start the brewing.

An obvious down side is that cleaning one that has made a million cups
of coffee over the years can be a bit of a challenge.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
My goal is to do at least some beers using BIAB this year. It'll be a
challenge because I always brew two batches on the same day and BIAB
will add 1-1/2 to 2 hours to a session. Mainly because all I have as a
heat source are two 1kW electric cooktop burners side-by-side, plugged
into different circuits. Bringing 6 gallons to a boil takes almost two
hours. I don't even want to think about heating 8-9 gallons for BIAB (yet).

I'm starting to be tempted to buy a sous vide circulator by companies
like Anova now that the price is dropping below $100, and I'm sure
they'll fall even lower. I've read that people are using them to
maintain precise temps for mashing and also to greatly increase the
speed of bringing wort to a boil.

Interesting:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2013/09/equipment-we-test-the-199-sous-vide-circulato.html

However, only 1kW and that would just about double the time it takes to
heat my brew kettle. Well, because of higher efficiency maybe a little
less than double but still too much.

Post by baloonon
Immersion heating sticks made for brewing are another option, although
they sound like they need a lot more hands on involvement in setting up.
Also, the sous vide circulators let you do sous vide cooking, of course.
I haven't tried it, but some people swear it's tremendous.
It also might be worth checking second hand stores for one of those big
electric coffee urns -- they can often bring gallons of water to close
to boiling temp pretty quickly, and I've seen them for sale for very
little in thrift stores.
You can put them on a shelf higher than the burner and let gravity
tranfer to the pot, and a timer can be used to get the water ready
before you start the brewing.
An obvious down side is that cleaning one that has made a million cups
of coffee over the years can be a bit of a challenge.

Though in the end a kilowatt is a kilowatt. It needs to get into the
water and judging by the heat streaking along on the outside of the pot
I am not losing much energy. Thing is, downstairs the only reasonable
way to get much more than a kilowatt is using two circuits which is what
I am doing. A gas burner isn't feasible where I am working. While there
is a cooking alcove with its own flue that's on the wrong side of the
room. There is carpet and one wee mess would create a major problem.
Plus no water, no sink, no way to clean anything.

What I may do is get myself a regular 1500W immersion heater, run an
extension cord up the stairs to a 3rd circuit and stick that in there
when having to bring the kettle from ambient to 155F and then again from
155F to start of boil. Like this but preferably without fuse:

https://www.amazon.com/Travel-Coffee-Immersion-Element-Portable/dp/B01FOQJO9C

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
My goal is to do at least some beers using BIAB this year. It'll be
a challenge because I always brew two batches on the same day and
BIAB will add 1-1/2 to 2 hours to a session. Mainly because all I
have as a heat source are two 1kW electric cooktop burners
side-by-side, plugged into different circuits. Bringing 6 gallons to
a boil takes almost two hours. I don't even want to think about
heating 8-9 gallons for BIAB (yet).

I'm starting to be tempted to buy a sous vide circulator by companies
like Anova now that the price is dropping below $100, and I'm sure
they'll fall even lower. I've read that people are using them to
maintain precise temps for mashing and also to greatly increase the
speed of bringing wort to a boil.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2013/09/equipment-we-test-the-199-sous-

vide-

Post by Joerg
circulato.html
However, only 1kW and that would just about double the time it takes
to heat my brew kettle. Well, because of higher efficiency maybe a
little less than double but still too much.

I meant that people use them in concert with the stove, but it sounds
like there's an issue with how much you can plug into your circuit, so I
guess that kind of approach is out.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
My goal is to do at least some beers using BIAB this year. It'll be
a challenge because I always brew two batches on the same day and
BIAB will add 1-1/2 to 2 hours to a session. Mainly because all I
have as a heat source are two 1kW electric cooktop burners
side-by-side, plugged into different circuits. Bringing 6 gallons to
a boil takes almost two hours. I don't even want to think about
heating 8-9 gallons for BIAB (yet).

I'm starting to be tempted to buy a sous vide circulator by companies
like Anova now that the price is dropping below $100, and I'm sure
they'll fall even lower. I've read that people are using them to
maintain precise temps for mashing and also to greatly increase the
speed of bringing wort to a boil.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2013/09/equipment-we-test-the-199-sous-

vide-

Post by Joerg
circulato.html
However, only 1kW and that would just about double the time it takes
to heat my brew kettle. Well, because of higher efficiency maybe a
little less than double but still too much.

I meant that people use them in concert with the stove, but it sounds
like there's an issue with how much you can plug into your circuit, so I
guess that kind of approach is out.

It might not be out because I can always run a long extension cord up
the stairs for access to a 3rd circuit. Do you think a sous vide heater
has major benefits versus an immersion heater? From what I can see all
it does extra is circulating the water and the ones I found only have
1kW while cheap $10 immersion heaters often have 1.5kW.

Those things are expensive and we wouldn't use it for cooking. We don't
like wasting so much in plastic wrapping or bags and personally I prefer
to cook everything outdoors anyhow, rain or shine.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon
I meant that people use them in concert with the stove, but it sounds
like there's an issue with how much you can plug into your circuit, so I
guess that kind of approach is out.

It might not be out because I can always run a long extension cord up
the stairs for access to a 3rd circuit. Do you think a sous vide heater
has major benefits versus an immersion heater? From what I can see all
it does extra is circulating the water and the ones I found only have
1kW while cheap $10 immersion heaters often have 1.5kW.
Those things are expensive and we wouldn't use it for cooking.
We don't like wasting so much in plastic wrapping or bags and
personally I prefer to cook everything outdoors anyhow, rain or shine.

I don't know much about immersion heaters, so all I can say is that some
I've seen require some extra wiring or set up compared to a sous vide
stick, although that's not necessarily a big deal to a lot of people.

A sous vide stick lets you do sous vide, obviously, and some people
swear by it, but you're right that it involves fiddling with bags and
it's usually slow. I don't think it's worth it for me to get another
kitchen gadget without knowing it's something I'll use a lot, so I'm not
getting one any time soon.

I'm personally not a fan of running long extension cords for a long time
unattended, but I also have a lot of old weird wiring, animals running
around, etc. but other people often have different setups.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon
I meant that people use them in concert with the stove, but it sounds
like there's an issue with how much you can plug into your circuit,

so I

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon
guess that kind of approach is out.

It might not be out because I can always run a long extension cord up
the stairs for access to a 3rd circuit. Do you think a sous vide heater
has major benefits versus an immersion heater? From what I can see all
it does extra is circulating the water and the ones I found only have
1kW while cheap $10 immersion heaters often have 1.5kW.
Those things are expensive and we wouldn't use it for cooking.
We don't like wasting so much in plastic wrapping or bags and
personally I prefer to cook everything outdoors anyhow, rain or shine.

I don't know much about immersion heaters, so all I can say is that some
I've seen require some extra wiring or set up compared to a sous vide
stick, although that's not necessarily a big deal to a lot of people.
A sous vide stick lets you do sous vide, obviously, and some people
swear by it, but you're right that it involves fiddling with bags and
it's usually slow. I don't think it's worth it for me to get another
kitchen gadget without knowing it's something I'll use a lot, so I'm not
getting one any time soon.
I'm personally not a fan of running long extension cords for a long time
unattended, but I also have a lot of old weird wiring, animals running
around, etc. but other people often have different setups.

It's not so bad here. The Labradors aren't into tearing things up, they
don't come down to the brew werks and when I brew it's always attended.
A boil-over would put me in the dog house.

[Derek J Decker]

Post by baloonon
I'm starting to be tempted to buy a sous vide circulator by companies
like Anova now that the price is dropping below $100, and I'm sure
they'll fall even lower. I've read that people are using them to
maintain precise temps for mashing and also to greatly increase the
speed of bringing wort to a boil.

I've been using an Anova sous vide circulator for mash control weekly for
a couple years now. I'm doing small batch BIAB, full volume, a gallon at
a time. A few notes you might be interested in before purchasing such a
device:

1) I use the Anova to heat my water to mash temp while I do all my setup,
sanitation, getting the grain bill ready, etc. I'm usually up to temp by
the time I'm ready. You'd need an additional heat source with bigger
batch sizes.

2) I used to do a 40°-60°-70° mash schedule, but the Anova would get
crudded up if it's used to try to raise temps like that by itself. It's
not so easy to clean the heating element and impeller, and I worried
about adding off, burned, flavors. I now use the Anova just for
maintaining temperature, which it does well.

3) the heating element still, shall we say, acquires a patina which must
be cleaned. I find running the thing in a solution of citric acid does a
pretty good job, but that's a pain. If you use an Anova for larger
batches than mine, it may well use more wattage to maintain the
temperature you want, and so will get dirtier quicker.

4) The Anova's weak point is the socket where the electrical cord plugs
into the device - if you unplug this every time you put it away, it will
get flaky and eventually fail. A common failure mode has the unit run
fine until the pump starts - the jiggle cause by the sudden flow of water
is enough to turn the device off. Took me a while to figure that out.

I now leave that cord plugged in all the time.

5) I haven't yet tried using the Anova + stovetop to change temps, mash
out, or bring to a boil, as my batch size doesn't really need that. If I
wanted to time and motion study my brewing process for maximum time
efficiency, I would do that, but this is supposed to be a relaxing hobby,
not an exercise in miniature industrial engineering.

I'm happy with the Anova, mostly - I use it every week for brewing, and
occasionally sous vide something for dinner. I keep dreaming of an
externally PID controlled induction plate plus circulator, though.

That's most of what I can think of offhand - if there are any questions
I'll be happy to reply.

-Derek

[Ecnerwal]

2) I used to do a 40°-60°-70° mash schedule, but the Anova would get
crudded up if it's used to try to raise temps like that by itself. It's
not so easy to clean the heating element and impeller, and I worried
about adding off, burned, flavors. I now use the Anova just for
maintaining temperature, which it does well.
3) the heating element still, shall we say, acquires a patina which must
be cleaned. I find running the thing in a solution of citric acid does a
pretty good job, but that's a pain. If you use an Anova for larger
batches than mine, it may well use more wattage to maintain the
temperature you want, and so will get dirtier quicker.

Sounds like you might want to get it "closer to how sous vide is done"
to remove some of the troubles - i.e. heat a water bath around your
wort, rather than your wort. Perhaps a well-insulated cooler, water, a
pot, mash/wort. Of course that would not boil your wort to speak of...

[Derek J Decker]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Derek J Decker
2) I used to do a 40°-60°-70° mash schedule, but the Anova would get
crudded up if it's used to try to raise temps like that by itself. It's
not so easy to clean the heating element and impeller, and I worried
about adding off, burned, flavors. I now use the Anova just for
maintaining temperature, which it does well.
3) the heating element still, shall we say, acquires a patina which
must be cleaned. I find running the thing in a solution of citric acid
does a pretty good job, but that's a pain. If you use an Anova for
larger batches than mine, it may well use more wattage to maintain the
temperature you want, and so will get dirtier quicker.

Sounds like you might want to get it "closer to how sous vide is done"
to remove some of the troubles - i.e. heat a water bath around your
wort, rather than your wort. Perhaps a well-insulated cooler, water, a
pot, mash/wort. Of course that would not boil your wort to speak of...

It's not a big problem as long as the Anova is used to maintain wort
temp. If I wanted to go back to the stepped temp mash, which was
slightly more efficient, I suppose I could do it the old fashioned way,
start with less than a full volume, and add the correct amounts of hot
water to make the temp changes. Brewtarget will help me calculate that,
so far I haven't decided I need to do that.

The Anova, in my experience, is excellent at maintaining temp, more
problematical at changing temp.

-Derek

[baloonon]

Post by Derek J Decker
I'm happy with the Anova, mostly - I use it every week for brewing,
and occasionally sous vide something for dinner. I keep dreaming of
an externally PID controlled induction plate plus circulator, though.
That's most of what I can think of offhand - if there are any
questions I'll be happy to reply.

Thanks for the background. How is the sous vide? Some people swear it's
the greatest, although I wonder if I'll find it useful considering how long
it can take.

[Derek J Decker]

Post by baloonon

Post by Derek J Decker
I'm happy with the Anova, mostly - I use it every week for brewing, and
occasionally sous vide something for dinner. I keep dreaming of an
externally PID controlled induction plate plus circulator, though.
That's most of what I can think of offhand - if there are any questions
I'll be happy to reply.

Thanks for the background. How is the sous vide? Some people swear
it's the greatest, although I wonder if I'll find it useful considering
how long it can take.

So far I've used it for steaks, and the results are excellent - even a
tougher cut of steak comes out tender and delicious after 4 or 5 hours in
the thing. Lifehacker.com has had a series of articles entitled "Will it
Sous Vide?" where they try to cook pretty much everything that way, which
is silly, but the Cornish game hens sounded pretty good.

I don't usually plan my dinners ahead enough to use it more, low and slow
is a great way to cook, but I generally wait until dinner time to decide
what to make for dinner. This may be why I now own so many pressure
cookers.

-Derek