Biofine and bottle carbonation

[Joerg]

On advice here in the group I bought some Biofine a month ago. Now three
batches in secondary are almost finished and I will bottle those on
Monday. So the time to add Biofine to my Belgian Tripel would be
Saturday I assume.

Question: In promotional material for Biofine I read that it passivates
all remaining yeast or something like that. However, I do need some
residual yeast to work off the 3-4oz of corn sugar and create good
carbonation in the bottles. Is that still going to work?

I want to start with a teaspoon full for a 5-gal batch. Or maybe two if
you guys think that is better but I really don't want to ruin my Belgian
Tripel because that's my favorite beer. It wouod be very sa if that
fails to carbonate.

My main reason for such "post-fining" is that I had numerous Belgian
Tripel and some Saison bottles grenade. Carbonation calculators seems
almost useless with Belgian yeast strains.

[Tom Biasi]

Post by Joerg
On advice here in the group I bought some Biofine a month ago. Now three
batches in secondary are almost finished and I will bottle those on
Monday. So the time to add Biofine to my Belgian Tripel would be
Saturday I assume.
Question: In promotional material for Biofine I read that it passivates
all remaining yeast or something like that. However, I do need some
residual yeast to work off the 3-4oz of corn sugar and create good
carbonation in the bottles. Is that still going to work?
I want to start with a teaspoon full for a 5-gal batch. Or maybe two if
you guys think that is better but I really don't want to ruin my Belgian
Tripel because that's my favorite beer. It wouod be very sa if that
fails to carbonate.
My main reason for such "post-fining" is that I had numerous Belgian
Tripel and some Saison bottles grenade. Carbonation calculators seems
almost useless with Belgian yeast strains.

If it passivates all remaining yeast then you will have no yeast to
ferment the corn sugar. You could add a little yeast.

[Joerg]

Post by Tom Biasi

Post by Joerg
On advice here in the group I bought some Biofine a month ago. Now
three batches in secondary are almost finished and I will bottle those
on Monday. So the time to add Biofine to my Belgian Tripel would be
Saturday I assume.
Question: In promotional material for Biofine I read that it
passivates all remaining yeast or something like that. However, I do
need some residual yeast to work off the 3-4oz of corn sugar and
create good carbonation in the bottles. Is that still going to work?
I want to start with a teaspoon full for a 5-gal batch. Or maybe two
if you guys think that is better but I really don't want to ruin my
Belgian Tripel because that's my favorite beer. It wouod be very sa if
that fails to carbonate.
My main reason for such "post-fining" is that I had numerous Belgian
Tripel and some Saison bottles grenade. Carbonation calculators seems
almost useless with Belgian yeast strains.

If it passivates all remaining yeast then you will have no yeast to
ferment the corn sugar. You could add a little yeast.

Then I might as well not use the Biofine. Looks like I may have bought
it in vain after all (under Q&A):

http://www.northernbrewer.com/biofine-clear-1-oz

The goal was to prevent bottles from grenading especially in summer.
Right now temps are mild though so 4oz or less of corn sugar should be
fine with the Belgian Tripel. Maybe I put that in Grolsch bottles which
are of better quality than domestic 12-ouncers. It's a bit much beer per
serving though for such a high-ABV brew.

[Ecnerwal]

I'd sooner think more time in secondary or a significant reduction in
priming sugar (like, cut it in half) for your grenading bottle problem.
If you have yeast enough to carbonate, you have yeast. If they have too
much sugar due to incomplete fermentation or excessive priming, they
will make too much gas. Removing the food source is far more effective
than reducing the size of the initial population of things that
reproduce.

Dollars to doughnuts you have residual sugars that have not been fully
consumed before you add priming sugar. In making "big beers" I've
learned to trust the calendar a lot more than I rust a hygrometer,
though my current interest is more in the other end of the spectrum
(dark milds.)

I don't recall if you've mentioned your process with priming sugar - I
like to boil it with a bit of water to kill any passengers it might have
hitching a ride, then let it cool covered. I admit to being
sanitation-paranoid.

If you managed to get rid of "all" the yeast you could switch to
kreusening. But that's unlikely to be a problem, IMPE. It also adds a
different wild variable to work around.

As for bottle size, a nice aspect of the flip-tops is that they are easy
to pour a small glass from and recap. I do the same thing with plastic
snap-on caps and regular crown-cap bottles. If finished within a few
days I've never seen a notable quality problem. I bottle the bulk of my
stuff in 750ml bottles and dispense over a while if not having enough
beer-fans visiting to kill the bottle. I certainly don't drink one of
those in a day by myself these days.

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal
I'd sooner think more time in secondary or a significant reduction in
priming sugar (like, cut it in half) for your grenading bottle problem.
If you have yeast enough to carbonate, you have yeast. If they have too
much sugar due to incomplete fermentation or excessive priming, they
will make too much gas. Removing the food source is far more effective
than reducing the size of the initial population of things that
reproduce.
Dollars to doughnuts you have residual sugars that have not been fully
consumed before you add priming sugar. In making "big beers" I've
learned to trust the calendar a lot more than I rust a hygrometer,
though my current interest is more in the other end of the spectrum
(dark milds.)

The hydrometer reading for those beers is actually lowest of them all,
around 1.010. I give them a lot of time, 10 days in primary and another
four weeks in secondary.

One week into carbonation, almost flat. Two weeks, ok carbonation but
still not much to write home about. Four weeks when it is 75-80F down
there ... KABOOM. Strange thing is the Koelsch and Cream Ale produce
more foam when poured but those bottles never grenaded.

Post by Ecnerwal
I don't recall if you've mentioned your process with priming sugar - I
like to boil it with a bit of water to kill any passengers it might have
hitching a ride, then let it cool covered. I admit to being
sanitation-paranoid.

Same here. I boil the water with the dissolved corn sugar for five
minutes, then cool it off in the pot with the lid closed. It remains
closed until right before it is poured into the sanitized bottling
bucket. I rack the beer into that afterwards without any splashing.

Post by Ecnerwal
If you managed to get rid of "all" the yeast you could switch to
kreusening. But that's unlikely to be a problem, IMPE. It also adds a
different wild variable to work around.

That sounds too scary for me. 57 batches so far but I am still a brewing
rookie.

Post by Ecnerwal
As for bottle size, a nice aspect of the flip-tops is that they are easy
to pour a small glass from and recap. I do the same thing with plastic
snap-on caps and regular crown-cap bottles. If finished within a few
days I've never seen a notable quality problem.

We both grew up in Germany where beer is considered basic nutrition so
not finishing a bottle is never an option :-)

Post by Ecnerwal
... I bottle the bulk of my
stuff in 750ml bottles and dispense over a while if not having enough
beer-fans visiting to kill the bottle. I certainly don't drink one of
those in a day by myself these days.

Oh, if it's the god stuff I would ...

So I put a teaspoon of Biofine in there, it shook a bit while being
carried outside to rest on the bottling table and the Belgian will be
bottled last today. We'll see in 2-3 weeks.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
The hydrometer reading for those beers is actually lowest of them all,
around 1.010. I give them a lot of time, 10 days in primary and another
four weeks in secondary.

Which is not (by my definitions) a lot of time for a big beer. As the
ABV goes up, the yeast get slower. I'd be looking at bottling perhaps
5-6 months from brew day, personally.

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
The hydrometer reading for those beers is actually lowest of them all,
around 1.010. I give them a lot of time, 10 days in primary and another
four weeks in secondary.

Which is not (by my definitions) a lot of time for a big beer. As the
ABV goes up, the yeast get slower. I'd be looking at bottling perhaps
5-6 months from brew day, personally.

We'd be all shriveled up from thirst by then :-)

My beers are generally not high-ABV. The Belgian Tripel is 7.5% but most
others are 6% or less. Normally when the hydrometer reads 1.010 and the
airlock is totally leveled out the fermentation is done. The yeast is
still alive and kicking because we always use the trub for a bread
starter dough and it quickly rises at least to 2x the size. Also, I
usually siphon off some to start the next beer and in contrast to dry
yeast it is almost a Speedy Gonzales start. A few hours after dropping
it in the airlock gets going.

Back downstairs now. The IPA from this morning is in the fermenter and
now a Honey Wheat will be brewed. My plastic fermenters are seriously
etched on the inside by now, brownish, yuck. Need new ones. It would be
nice if these 6-1/2 gallon buckets came in stainless steel like other
buckets do.

[Ecnerwal]

Post by Joerg
We'd be all shriveled up from thirst by then :-)

Long-aging is simply a matter of setting a secondary/tertiary aside for
the time involved - if you have 4 or 5 others that are each a month
behind the first one, after 6 months you have lots of beer aging. If you
can't make it through the 6 months without, you can brew shorter-term
batches in between the batches to be set aside for aging. Then you just
brew at the rate you drink and it all works out.

The thing is, bottles don't grenade unless there is sugar that's not
accounted for which gets fermented, unless we're getting into defective,
cracked or scratched (that usually has to be pretty badly, actually)
bottles.

Post by Joerg
My plastic fermenters are seriously
etched on the inside by now, brownish, yuck. Need new ones. It would be
nice if these 6-1/2 gallon buckets came in stainless steel like other
buckets do.

If you want them badly enough, evidently $135 or so will get you a
stainless steel not-exactly a brew bucket (fusti) that looks adaptable
to brewing purposes. I use an acid carboy, but that would be difficult
with your handling process.

https://www.gourmetimportshop.com/Sansone-Stainless-Steel-NSF-Fusti-25-Li
ters-p/sa0025-1.htm

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
We'd be all shriveled up from thirst by then :-)

Long-aging is simply a matter of setting a secondary/tertiary aside for
the time involved - if you have 4 or 5 others that are each a month
behind the first one, after 6 months you have lots of beer aging. If you
can't make it through the 6 months without, you can brew shorter-term
batches in between the batches to be set aside for aging. Then you just
brew at the rate you drink and it all works out.
The thing is, bottles don't grenade unless there is sugar that's not
accounted for which gets fermented, unless we're getting into defective,
cracked or scratched (that usually has to be pretty badly, actually)
bottles.

Shouldn't the beer racked off from secondary taste a little sweet then?
Mine never does and I always take a sample. And then another one. And
maybe another ...

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
My plastic fermenters are seriously
etched on the inside by now, brownish, yuck. Need new ones. It would be
nice if these 6-1/2 gallon buckets came in stainless steel like other
buckets do.

If you want them badly enough, evidently $135 or so will get you a
stainless steel not-exactly a brew bucket (fusti) that looks adaptable
to brewing purposes. I use an acid carboy, but that would be difficult
with your handling process.
https://www.gourmetimportshop.com/Sansone-Stainless-Steel-NSF-Fusti-25-Li
ters-p/sa0025-1.htm

A bit pricey and they have an odd shape. Then I could not get two
primaries into my fermentation chamber anymore. It is a converted wine
fridge so I can make beer all year round.

Looks like the plastic pails are the only option and I'll have to buy
new ones regularly. At $15 they aren't super expensive.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
My plastic fermenters are seriously
etched on the inside by now, brownish, yuck. Need new ones. It would
be nice if these 6-1/2 gallon buckets came in stainless steel like
other buckets do.

If you want them badly enough, evidently $135 or so will get you a
stainless steel not-exactly a brew bucket (fusti) that looks
adaptable to brewing purposes. I use an acid carboy, but that would
be difficult with your handling process.
https://www.gourmetimportshop.com/Sansone-Stainless-Steel-NSF-Fusti-

25-Li ters-p/sa0025-1.htm

Post by Joerg
A bit pricey and they have an odd shape. Then I could not get two
primaries into my fermentation chamber anymore. It is a converted wine
fridge so I can make beer all year round.
Looks like the plastic pails are the only option and I'll have to buy
new ones regularly. At $15 they aren't super expensive.

You can ferment in stainless steel pots, and it's possible to get 7
gallon ones for about $50. Obviously that's pricier than plastic, but
they should last forever and are simple to clean and sanitize.

There's a downside that the lids aren't airtight unless you rig up a
gasket, and installing an airlock involves drilling through steel. An
airlock isn't really necessary though, and there's no reason you
couldn't just let the CO2 vent out of a slight gap in the lid as long as
your fermenting area is clean. Otherwise the only issue about the lid I
can see is that there's a slightly greater potential for spilling
compared to a sealed plastic bucket and lid, but normally that's not a
big risk.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by Ecnerwal

Post by Joerg
My plastic fermenters are seriously
etched on the inside by now, brownish, yuck. Need new ones. It would
be nice if these 6-1/2 gallon buckets came in stainless steel like
other buckets do.

If you want them badly enough, evidently $135 or so will get you a
stainless steel not-exactly a brew bucket (fusti) that looks
adaptable to brewing purposes. I use an acid carboy, but that would
be difficult with your handling process.
https://www.gourmetimportshop.com/Sansone-Stainless-Steel-NSF-Fusti-

25-Li ters-p/sa0025-1.htm

Post by Joerg
A bit pricey and they have an odd shape. Then I could not get two
primaries into my fermentation chamber anymore. It is a converted wine
fridge so I can make beer all year round.
Looks like the plastic pails are the only option and I'll have to buy
new ones regularly. At $15 they aren't super expensive.

You can ferment in stainless steel pots, and it's possible to get 7
gallon ones for about $50.

In similar dimensions as the usual plastic fermenter buckets? Where?

Post by baloonon
... Obviously that's pricier than plastic, but
they should last forever and are simple to clean and sanitize.
There's a downside that the lids aren't airtight unless you rig up a
gasket, and installing an airlock involves drilling through steel. An
airlock isn't really necessary though, and there's no reason you
couldn't just let the CO2 vent out of a slight gap in the lid as long as
your fermenting area is clean. Otherwise the only issue about the lid I
can see is that there's a slightly greater potential for spilling
compared to a sealed plastic bucket and lid, but normally that's not a
big risk.

I could rig up some neoprene seal and put a weight on there if needed. I
like to see and hear the glug-glug-glug of an airlock. My mountain bike
buddy is a tool & die maker, he could drill the holes.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Looks like the plastic pails are the only option and I'll have
to buy new ones regularly. At $15 they aren't super expensive.

You can ferment in stainless steel pots, and it's possible to get 7
gallon ones for about $50.

In similar dimensions as the usual plastic fermenter buckets? Where?

I'm not sure if these are the right dimensions for your setup, but here are
a couple of examples:

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/13340745276835119400

https://moonshine-still.co/products/stainless-steel-brew-kettle-stock-pot-
with-lid-30-qt-for-brewing-and-distilling

Amazon has others too. For that price, I'm sure it's thin steel and not the
toughest construction, but for a fermenter that may well be fine.

Post by Joerg
I could rig up some neoprene seal and put a weight on there if needed.
I like to see and hear the glug-glug-glug of an airlock. My mountain
bike buddy is a tool & die maker, he could drill the holes.

It would be pretty trivial to cut a slightly larger piece of acrylic with a
hole drilled for an airlock and clamp it down on top over an improvised
gasket, and there would be the minor advantage of being able to look at the
foam rising from time to time.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Looks like the plastic pails are the only option and I'll have
to buy new ones regularly. At $15 they aren't super expensive.

You can ferment in stainless steel pots, and it's possible to get 7
gallon ones for about $50.

In similar dimensions as the usual plastic fermenter buckets? Where?

I'm not sure if these are the right dimensions for your setup, but here are
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/13340745276835119400
https://moonshine-still.co/products/stainless-steel-brew-kettle-stock-pot-
with-lid-30-qt-for-brewing-and-distilling
Amazon has others too. For that price, I'm sure it's thin steel and not the
toughest construction, but for a fermenter that may well be fine.

Stock pots are generally too wide, not tall like the 6-1/2 gallon
buckets. I couldn't squeeze in two of those.

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
I could rig up some neoprene seal and put a weight on there if needed.
I like to see and hear the glug-glug-glug of an airlock. My mountain
bike buddy is a tool & die maker, he could drill the holes.

It would be pretty trivial to cut a slightly larger piece of acrylic with a
hole drilled for an airlock and clamp it down on top over an improvised
gasket, and there would be the minor advantage of being able to look at the
foam rising from time to time.

Or add a brewcam and beam to the living room TV :-)

Actually out TV distributor amps are in the same room so I seriously
could place a modulator there and occasionally switch to the "fermenters
channel".

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Looks like the plastic pails are the only option and I'll have
to buy new ones regularly. At $15 they aren't super expensive.

You can ferment in stainless steel pots, and it's possible to get 7
gallon ones for about $50.

In similar dimensions as the usual plastic fermenter buckets? Where?

I'm not sure if these are the right dimensions for your setup, but
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/13340745276835119400
https://moonshine-still.co/products/stainless-steel-brew-kettle-

stock-

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon
pot- with-lid-30-qt-for-brewing-and-distilling
Amazon has others too. For that price, I'm sure it's thin steel and
not the toughest construction, but for a fermenter that may well be
fine.

Stock pots are generally too wide, not tall like the 6-1/2 gallon
buckets. I couldn't squeeze in two of those.

I think they're not too much wider than a typical bucket, but the
handles may add a complicating factor too.

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
I could rig up some neoprene seal and put a weight on there if
needed. I like to see and hear the glug-glug-glug of an airlock. My
mountain bike buddy is a tool & die maker, he could drill the holes.

It would be pretty trivial to cut a slightly larger piece of acrylic
with a hole drilled for an airlock and clamp it down on top over an
improvised gasket, and there would be the minor advantage of being
able to look at the foam rising from time to time.

Or add a brewcam and beam to the living room TV :-)
Actually out TV distributor amps are in the same room so I seriously
could place a modulator there and occasionally switch to the
"fermenters channel".

I think a microphone would be pretty cool so you could broadcast the
blooping while there was active fermenting.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Looks like the plastic pails are the only option and I'll have
to buy new ones regularly. At $15 they aren't super expensive.

You can ferment in stainless steel pots, and it's possible to get 7
gallon ones for about $50.

In similar dimensions as the usual plastic fermenter buckets? Where?

I'm not sure if these are the right dimensions for your setup, but
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/13340745276835119400
https://moonshine-still.co/products/stainless-steel-brew-kettle-

stock-

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon
pot- with-lid-30-qt-for-brewing-and-distilling
Amazon has others too. For that price, I'm sure it's thin steel and
not the toughest construction, but for a fermenter that may well be
fine.

Stock pots are generally too wide, not tall like the 6-1/2 gallon
buckets. I couldn't squeeze in two of those.

I think they're not too much wider than a typical bucket, but the
handles may add a complicating factor too.

I checked many of them and all were wider by a lot. I could tolerate
1/2" more but not 1" more because that would drop the primary chamber
capacity from two to one and then we'd become thirsty :-)

From decades ago in Europe I remember stainless steel trash bins that
were skinny and tall but I never saw them over here. They didn't have a
lid but a Lexan plate as you suggested plus a neoprene ring should do
the trick. That would allow an air lock to burp as usual.

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
I could rig up some neoprene seal and put a weight on there if
needed. I like to see and hear the glug-glug-glug of an airlock. My
mountain bike buddy is a tool & die maker, he could drill the holes.

It would be pretty trivial to cut a slightly larger piece of acrylic
with a hole drilled for an airlock and clamp it down on top over an
improvised gasket, and there would be the minor advantage of being
able to look at the foam rising from time to time.

Or add a brewcam and beam to the living room TV :-)
Actually out TV distributor amps are in the same room so I seriously
could place a modulator there and occasionally switch to the
"fermenters channel".

I think a microphone would be pretty cool so you could broadcast the
blooping while there was active fermenting.

Best is camera plus microphone. Most have it built in. I found the
Logitech C270 to be very good if using a computer to broadcast via LAN
or WLAN. $15-20, crisp picture, great sound. Or one could use a
WLAN-equipped camera.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
I checked many of them and all were wider by a lot. I could tolerate
1/2" more but not 1" more because that would drop the primary chamber
capacity from two to one and then we'd become thirsty :-)
From decades ago in Europe I remember stainless steel trash bins that
were skinny and tall but I never saw them over here. They didn't have
a lid but a Lexan plate as you suggested plus a neoprene ring should
do the trick. That would allow an air lock to burp as usual.

I'd be worried about anything with a seam that could leak or introduce
rust, which might be the case with a metal container that's not designed
for holding liquids.

One thing I've thought about when the plastic buckets finally give up
the ghost is plastic pet food containers. They would be food safe and
airtight, and I think they're pretty tough in order to discourage pets
(and vermin) from chewing through them. I've read about a few people
using them, although I'm not sure there were any strong advantages or
disadvantages to them over a bucket or other plastic fermenter. My
homebrew store uses them as bins for the malt they sell.

One thing that might work for you is they're rectangular so a cooler
might fit them better than buckets or carboys. I think Vittles Vault is
the brand my store uses, but I'm sure there are others that would work
too.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
I checked many of them and all were wider by a lot. I could tolerate
1/2" more but not 1" more because that would drop the primary chamber
capacity from two to one and then we'd become thirsty :-)
From decades ago in Europe I remember stainless steel trash bins that
were skinny and tall but I never saw them over here. They didn't have
a lid but a Lexan plate as you suggested plus a neoprene ring should
do the trick. That would allow an air lock to burp as usual.

I'd be worried about anything with a seam that could leak or introduce
rust, which might be the case with a metal container that's not designed
for holding liquids.

True, I would not buy one with a bottom seam or side seam. However, they
offered designer buckets for a high-falutin office setting that had no
seams and sometimes also no top rim.

Medical suppliers also offer those but they are expensive. The inner
bucket of this one is likely non-seamed for sanitation reasons:

http://www.medicalexpo.com/prod/francehopital/product-68519-540605.html

These are probably seamless as well but too small:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/AmeriHome-Large-Stainless-Steel-Bucket-Set-3-Pack-801675/206814758

Post by baloonon
One thing I've thought about when the plastic buckets finally give up
the ghost is plastic pet food containers. They would be food safe and
airtight, and I think they're pretty tough in order to discourage pets
(and vermin) from chewing through them. I've read about a few people
using them, although I'm not sure there were any strong advantages or
disadvantages to them over a bucket or other plastic fermenter. My
homebrew store uses them as bins for the malt they sell.

That is a good idea. Since two Labradors live with us we have such large
containers and their tight lids are of much better quality than the
usual home brewer plastic deal. The ones we have a huge though and
wouldn't fit.

Post by baloonon
One thing that might work for you is they're rectangular so a cooler
might fit them better than buckets or carboys. I think Vittles Vault is
the brand my store uses, but I'm sure there are others that would work
too.

Yes, got to check that out. I am also always on the lookout for
secondary vessels. The 5-gal water cooler bottles I use now are great.
However, whenever a primary fermenter got a bit full it's a white
knuckle situation at the end of racking. I rack inside the fermentatuion
chamber, from upper compartment to the lower where the secondaries live.
Will it overflow? Can I get the hose out or clamped fast enough if it does?

[Ecnerwal]

Inexpensive, stainless, food-grade and narrow, but more on the
half-batch size (dunno, perhaps you can get more of them in the fridge
and they'd carry easier) - 12 quart bain marie pot (no handles, that's
due to the type of pot) 11 inches tall by 9 inches wide. 30 bucks a pop
without lids. 10 inch wide version that's probably an import, $16. Not
finding much larger than 12 quart at the moment. May be even cheaper at
your local used restaurant supply store.

[Joerg]

Post by Ecnerwal
Inexpensive, stainless, food-grade and narrow, but more on the
half-batch size (dunno, perhaps you can get more of them in the fridge
and they'd carry easier) - 12 quart bain marie pot (no handles, that's
due to the type of pot) 11 inches tall by 9 inches wide. 30 bucks a pop
without lids. 10 inch wide version that's probably an import, $16. Not
finding much larger than 12 quart at the moment. May be even cheaper at
your local used restaurant supply store.

Not bad, those bain marie pots, I didn't know them:

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/8-25-qt-bain-marie-pot/92278780.html

Though it would be nice to have something that can hold at least six
gallons.

[baloonon]

Post by Ecnerwal
The thing is, bottles don't grenade unless there is sugar that's
not accounted for which gets fermented, unless we're getting into
defective, cracked or scratched (that usually has to be pretty
badly, actually) bottles.

I think the challenge is that there are times when yeasts (some strains
more than others) go dormant despite there being sugar still available. In
those cases, more time won't help, and getting all possible sugar digested
means it's necessary to intervene by stirring or otherwise rousing the
yeast. The trouble is that stirring the fermenter can introduce oxygen and
in significant volumes that can cause problems, and it's tough to know
beforehand if you actually have any sugar available, since FGs can
realistically vary by a couple of points. Warming the fermenter can help,
but I don't think it's a surefire thing. So it's often true that more time
in the fermenter can help ensure a finished job by the yeast, but I think
it's a guarantee.

[Bob F]

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal
The thing is, bottles don't grenade unless there is sugar that's
not accounted for which gets fermented, unless we're getting into
defective, cracked or scratched (that usually has to be pretty
badly, actually) bottles.

I think the challenge is that there are times when yeasts (some strains
more than others) go dormant despite there being sugar still available. In
those cases, more time won't help, and getting all possible sugar digested
means it's necessary to intervene by stirring or otherwise rousing the
yeast. The trouble is that stirring the fermenter can introduce oxygen and
in significant volumes that can cause problems, and it's tough to know
beforehand if you actually have any sugar available, since FGs can
realistically vary by a couple of points. Warming the fermenter can help,
but I don't think it's a surefire thing. So it's often true that more time
in the fermenter can help ensure a finished job by the yeast, but I think
it's a guarantee.

"Stirring" can be accomplished by tipping the fermenter, then moving the
top around in a circle, increasing speed as the liquid begins moving
around inside. I do it with my glass carboys in a milk crate by tipping
them up on one corner of the crate with my foot against that corner to
hold it in place, then moving the neck in a circle. I don't even have to
take off the air trap.

[Joerg]

Post by Bob F

Post by baloonon

Post by Ecnerwal
The thing is, bottles don't grenade unless there is sugar that's
not accounted for which gets fermented, unless we're getting into
defective, cracked or scratched (that usually has to be pretty
badly, actually) bottles.

I think the challenge is that there are times when yeasts (some strains
more than others) go dormant despite there being sugar still
available. In
those cases, more time won't help, and getting all possible sugar digested
means it's necessary to intervene by stirring or otherwise rousing the
yeast. The trouble is that stirring the fermenter can introduce oxygen and
in significant volumes that can cause problems, and it's tough to know
beforehand if you actually have any sugar available, since FGs can
realistically vary by a couple of points. Warming the fermenter can help,
but I don't think it's a surefire thing. So it's often true that more time
in the fermenter can help ensure a finished job by the yeast, but I think
it's a guarantee.

"Stirring" can be accomplished by tipping the fermenter, then moving the
top around in a circle, increasing speed as the liquid begins moving
around inside. I do it with my glass carboys in a milk crate by tipping
them up on one corner of the crate with my foot against that corner to
hold it in place, then moving the neck in a circle. I don't even have to
take off the air trap.

That is how I also did it but those were cases where the yeast "didn't
get into gear" at the start. Now that I have a temperature-controlled
chamber that never happens anymore.

I've never had a stuck fermentation mid-way, it always ended with the
hydrometer reading as low as exected. With Belgian yeast usually
attenuating much better yet those were the beers where I had bottle
grenades. Except one on a Stout that used regular US-05.

A side problem is that I love Belgian beer but they are too strong for
my wife. Since they are higher ABV I don't want to use the sturdy
Grolsch or German 500ml bottles because that's too much beer per
serving. So I am stuck with the US 12oz bottles which are flimsy in the
glass. Duvel bottles are ideal but I don't have many.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
On advice here in the group I bought some Biofine a month ago.
Now three batches in secondary are almost finished and I will
bottle those on Monday. So the time to add Biofine to my
Belgian Tripel would be Saturday I assume.
Question: In promotional material for Biofine I read that it
passivates
all remaining yeast or something like that. However, I do need some
residual yeast to work off the 3-4oz of corn sugar and create good
carbonation in the bottles. Is that still going to work?

Fining shouldn't cause a problem with bottle conditioning unless you leave
it for a really long time or use a lot more than recommended. It doesn't
sound like that's your plan. It's hard to get 100% of the yeast out unless
you filter, and it doesn't take much yeast to eventually repopulate enough
for bottle conditioning, although the process should be gentler with a
well-fined beer.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
On advice here in the group I bought some Biofine a month ago.
Now three batches in secondary are almost finished and I will
bottle those on Monday. So the time to add Biofine to my
Belgian Tripel would be Saturday I assume.
Question: In promotional material for Biofine I read that it
passivates
all remaining yeast or something like that. However, I do need some
residual yeast to work off the 3-4oz of corn sugar and create good
carbonation in the bottles. Is that still going to work?

Fining shouldn't cause a problem with bottle conditioning unless you leave
it for a really long time or use a lot more than recommended. It doesn't
sound like that's your plan. It's hard to get 100% of the yeast out unless
you filter, and it doesn't take much yeast to eventually repopulate enough
for bottle conditioning, although the process should be gentler with a
well-fined beer.

There are a lot of variables in this. The dosage recommendation I read
for Biofine are iffy, between a teaspoon and the whole ounce. That is a
huge range. Then I don't know how much yeast is stripped out. All I
wanted from it is to prevent bottle grenades. It would be really bad if
I bottle this (expensive) beer, open a bottle two weeks later and there
is no fizz.

For re-populating I'd have to figure out how much. Ok, some math can do
that. However, then I'd had to get new pouches somewhere, open and throw
the remainder away, at $4 a pop. Maybe this whole Biofine method isn't
so good for home brewers who carbonated in bottles? Why kill the
residual yeast in the first place only to re-introduce new yeast?

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
On advice here in the group I bought some Biofine a month ago.
Now three batches in secondary are almost finished and I will
bottle those on Monday. So the time to add Biofine to my
Belgian Tripel would be Saturday I assume.
Question: In promotional material for Biofine I read that it
passivates
all remaining yeast or something like that. However, I do need some
residual yeast to work off the 3-4oz of corn sugar and create good
carbonation in the bottles. Is that still going to work?

Fining shouldn't cause a problem with bottle conditioning unless you
leave it for a really long time or use a lot more than recommended.
It doesn't sound like that's your plan. It's hard to get 100% of the
yeast out unless you filter, and it doesn't take much yeast to
eventually repopulate enough for bottle conditioning, although the
process should be gentler with a well-fined beer.

There are a lot of variables in this. The dosage recommendation I read
for Biofine are iffy, between a teaspoon and the whole ounce. That is
a huge range. Then I don't know how much yeast is stripped out. All I
wanted from it is to prevent bottle grenades. It would be really bad
if I bottle this (expensive) beer, open a bottle two weeks later and
there is no fizz.
For re-populating I'd have to figure out how much. Ok, some math can
do that. However, then I'd had to get new pouches somewhere, open and
throw the remainder away, at $4 a pop. Maybe this whole Biofine method
isn't so good for home brewers who carbonated in bottles? Why kill the
residual yeast in the first place only to re-introduce new yeast?

I'd say go with lower end of the recommended amount. Finings don't kill
yeast, they just encourage it to drop out, and any kind of motion, such
as what you see in the bottling process, will cause a bit of it to rise
up again. Some of it will also stay in the beer all along.

There's going to be a bit of trial and error, and it's possible that
going with the lower level of fining won't fix the problem, and you'll
have to try again next time with more. It's also possible that finings
will never fix the problem and there's something else at play. But
again, unless you use a ton of finings, or you leave them in for a
really long time, you won't be hurting anything by trying them.

Some yeasts are just a lot more stubborn about floccing, and some are
going to be more aggressive reactivating when bottle conditioning. So it
may well turn out that the appropriate level of fining for one yeast and
one batch of beer turns out to be too little for another, or that the
best solution is something like changing the amount of priming sugar,
carbing at a different temperature, long cold crashing of the fermenter,
pushing for a little more lower final gravity, or some combination of
factors. Good luck.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
On advice here in the group I bought some Biofine a month ago.
Now three batches in secondary are almost finished and I will
bottle those on Monday. So the time to add Biofine to my
Belgian Tripel would be Saturday I assume.
Question: In promotional material for Biofine I read that it passivates
all remaining yeast or something like that. However, I do need some
residual yeast to work off the 3-4oz of corn sugar and create good
carbonation in the bottles. Is that still going to work?

Fining shouldn't cause a problem with bottle conditioning unless you
leave it for a really long time or use a lot more than recommended.
It doesn't sound like that's your plan. It's hard to get 100% of the
yeast out unless you filter, and it doesn't take much yeast to
eventually repopulate enough for bottle conditioning, although the
process should be gentler with a well-fined beer.

There are a lot of variables in this. The dosage recommendation I read
for Biofine are iffy, between a teaspoon and the whole ounce. That is
a huge range. Then I don't know how much yeast is stripped out. All I
wanted from it is to prevent bottle grenades. It would be really bad
if I bottle this (expensive) beer, open a bottle two weeks later and
there is no fizz.
For re-populating I'd have to figure out how much. Ok, some math can
do that. However, then I'd had to get new pouches somewhere, open and
throw the remainder away, at $4 a pop. Maybe this whole Biofine method
isn't so good for home brewers who carbonated in bottles? Why kill the
residual yeast in the first place only to re-introduce new yeast?

I'd say go with lower end of the recommended amount. Finings don't kill
yeast, they just encourage it to drop out, and any kind of motion, such
as what you see in the bottling process, will cause a bit of it to rise
up again. Some of it will also stay in the beer all along.

Ok, maybe I'll start with a teaspoon full then plus 4oz of corn sugar
for the 5-gal batch, to see what happens. I always rack off into
secondary quite carefully so as not to cloud up the beer. If carbonation
completely fails I guess I can open them all and add some US-05 even
though it's a Belgian, just for carbonation.

Post by baloonon
There's going to be a bit of trial and error, and it's possible that
going with the lower level of fining won't fix the problem, and you'll
have to try again next time with more. It's also possible that finings
will never fix the problem and there's something else at play. But
again, unless you use a ton of finings, or you leave them in for a
really long time, you won't be hurting anything by trying them.

So far I only use 3/4 tablespoon or Irish Moss 15mins before end of
boil. Biofine would go into the secondary 1-2 days before bottling,
meaning tonight.

Post by baloonon
Some yeasts are just a lot more stubborn about floccing, and some are
going to be more aggressive reactivating when bottle conditioning. So it
may well turn out that the appropriate level of fining for one yeast and
one batch of beer turns out to be too little for another, or that the
best solution is something like changing the amount of priming sugar,
carbing at a different temperature, long cold crashing of the fermenter,
pushing for a little more lower final gravity, or some combination of
factors. Good luck.

Thanks. So far it's mostly the beers with BE-256, S-33 and Lallemand
Belle Saison yeasts. The Belle Saison will be replaced with BE-134.
Can't remember any of the brews using US-05 grenading.

It's also that the BE-256 and S-33 cause the glass to be filled with
just foam on the first pour no matter how much I cut back on the
carbonation sugar. For whatever reason. It's not bothering me because I
just wait until the foam settles and pour 5-6 more times until the head
is just right. Tastes great. Those are the beers that grenaded in summer.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
Thanks. So far it's mostly the beers with BE-256, S-33 and Lallemand
Belle Saison yeasts. The Belle Saison will be replaced with BE-134.
Can't remember any of the brews using US-05 grenading.

It's been a little while since it's happened to me, but I seem to recall
Windsor yeast being involved, and that's well known for being having low
attenuation and sometimes stuck fermentation.

Post by Joerg
It's also that the BE-256 and S-33 cause the glass to be filled with
just foam on the first pour no matter how much I cut back on the
carbonation sugar. For whatever reason. It's not bothering me because I
just wait until the foam settles and pour 5-6 more times until the head
is just right. Tastes great. Those are the beers that grenaded in summer.

The easy solution is to get a bigger glass. Maybe two liters for a 12 ounce
beer....

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Thanks. So far it's mostly the beers with BE-256, S-33 and Lallemand
Belle Saison yeasts. The Belle Saison will be replaced with BE-134.
Can't remember any of the brews using US-05 grenading.

It's been a little while since it's happened to me, but I seem to recall
Windsor yeast being involved, and that's well known for being having low
attenuation and sometimes stuck fermentation.

Belgian yeast always had high attenuation for me. The Tripels finish
around 1.010 and the Saisons even lower. Most others finish between
1.012 and 1.014.

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
It's also that the BE-256 and S-33 cause the glass to be filled with
just foam on the first pour no matter how much I cut back on the
carbonation sugar. For whatever reason. It's not bothering me because I
just wait until the foam settles and pour 5-6 more times until the head
is just right. Tastes great. Those are the beers that grenaded in summer.

The easy solution is to get a bigger glass. Maybe two liters for a 12 ounce
beer....

But it wouldn't look good :-)

I like a beer with a nice "alpine-looking" head on there. Anyhow,
yesterday I added a little over a teaspoon of Biofine to the Tripel and
it'll get bottles this afternoon. We'll see. If it doesn't work I'll
tell my wife "But Baloonon told me it was ok" ...