Discussion:
Interesting Beer Experiment
(too old to reply)
baloonon
2017-02-23 16:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Ten people -- nine serious beer people, one Coors Light drinker -- tasted
three separate cups of beer.

The notable feature of the experiment is that each cup was filled from the
same keg. Only one drinker correctly determined that there was no
difference between each cup -- the Coors Light drinker.

<http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/03/the-impact-of-expectation-on-perception-
exbeeriment-results/>

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd "pass" this test either.
Joerg
2017-02-23 18:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by baloonon
Ten people -- nine serious beer people, one Coors Light drinker -- tasted
three separate cups of beer.
The notable feature of the experiment is that each cup was filled from the
same keg. Only one drinker correctly determined that there was no
difference between each cup -- the Coors Light drinker.
Probably all beers taste the same to the guy :-)
Post by baloonon
<http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/03/the-impact-of-expectation-on-perception-
exbeeriment-results/>
To be honest, I'm not sure I'd "pass" this test either.
--
SCNR, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Tom Biasi
2017-02-24 02:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joerg
Probably all beers taste the same to the guy :-)
Absolutely.
Joerg
2017-02-24 15:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Biasi
Post by Joerg
Probably all beers taste the same to the guy :-)
Absolutely.
Decades ago we used to very occasionally have a Cognac at night. But if
we ever did it had to be the really good stuff where a bottle typically
costs north of $50. Sometimes a lot more. So we had a friend over and
offered a Cognac. When we asked him how he liked it he said "Oh, all
this amber stuff tastes pretty good, usually". We didn't make that
mistake again.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
baloonon
2017-02-24 15:36:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joerg
Post by baloonon
Ten people -- nine serious beer people, one Coors Light drinker --
tasted three separate cups of beer.
The notable feature of the experiment is that each cup was filled
from the same keg. Only one drinker correctly determined that there
was no difference between each cup -- the Coors Light drinker.
Probably all beers taste the same to the guy :-)
Stopped clock is right twice a day and all that...

On the other hand, it's pretty obvious that a lot of beer geeks can't
even clear that bar.

The wine world does a weak job in handling issues of evaluation, but to
be honest I think the beer world tends to be behind even them. It's
sort of funny because there's a strong strain of engineers and science
types in the beer fan world, and they ought to be more sensitive to a
lot of the errors people make and the way they get made.

I'm guessing that it's because there's a strong desire for explanation
and certainty among many of those types, and that causes a bias which
overrides sound thinking.

Not universally so, of course -- I think the people at brulosophy.com
tend to take the right approach.
Joerg
2017-02-24 16:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by baloonon
Post by Joerg
Post by baloonon
Ten people -- nine serious beer people, one Coors Light drinker --
tasted three separate cups of beer.
The notable feature of the experiment is that each cup was filled
from the same keg. Only one drinker correctly determined that there
was no difference between each cup -- the Coors Light drinker.
Probably all beers taste the same to the guy :-)
Stopped clock is right twice a day and all that...
On the other hand, it's pretty obvious that a lot of beer geeks can't
even clear that bar.
The wine world does a weak job in handling issues of evaluation, but to
be honest I think the beer world tends to be behind even them. It's
sort of funny because there's a strong strain of engineers and science
types in the beer fan world, and they ought to be more sensitive to a
lot of the errors people make and the way they get made.
I'm guessing that it's because there's a strong desire for explanation
and certainty among many of those types, and that causes a bias which
overrides sound thinking.
Not universally so, of course -- I think the people at brulosophy.com
tend to take the right approach.
I am an engineer myself but would never be a good beer judge. I have my
preferences and there are certain beer styles I like. So far I've been
just a "serial brewer", making two new batches every time the loads get
transferred to secondary. Two brews on the same day. Other brewers
around this neighborhood are a lot more meticulous and fine-tune just
about everything, spending all day on one batch. I only become
meticulous when it comes to sanitation or equipment like the wine fridge
turned beer fridge. That now has controls inside that look like they
came off an aircraft.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
baloonon
2017-02-24 19:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joerg
Post by baloonon
The wine world does a weak job in handling issues of evaluation,
but to be honest I think the beer world tends to be behind even
them. It's sort of funny because there's a strong strain of
engineers and science types in the beer fan world, and they
ought to be more sensitive to a lot of the errors people make
and the way they get made.
I'm guessing that it's because there's a strong desire for
explanation and certainty among many of those types, and
that causes a bias which overrides sound thinking.
Not universally so, of course -- I think the people at brulosophy.com
tend to take the right approach.
I am an engineer myself but would never be a good beer judge. I
have my preferences and there are certain beer styles I like.
So far I've been just a "serial brewer", making two new batches
every time the loads get transferred to secondary. Two brews on
the same day. Other brewers around this neighborhood are a
lot more meticulous and fine-tune just
about everything, spending all day on one batch. I only become
meticulous when it comes to sanitation or equipment like the
wine fridge turned beer fridge. That now has controls inside
that look like they came off an aircraft.
I'm not a hard core controller of variables, but I think there's
something pretty cool about people who go all out and build the
equipment and create the methods for doing that kind of thing. I'd be
really happy if someone gave me a stainless multi-section home brewery
with precise volume and temperature controls, pH measuring tools, and a
well-tuned software suite for easy input and output of weights for
everything from grain to water treatment chemicals.

The one thing I find annoying is when people who do this get a false
sense of precision. I think there's a higher degree of variability in
malt, hops and yeast than some acknowledge, and there's often varability
in methods or equipment that doesn't get noticed. Most of all, I think
qualitative judgments are really hard to nail down, and a lot of flaws
creep in due to bad evaluation practices.

I guess the main thing is how well people can separate the results from
the inputs. If the hardware and methods help you enjoy your beer,
you're doing it right -- if all that shrinks the amount of beer you're
enjoying due to hyperanalysis, rigid setting of expectations, and the
like, then you're doing it wrong.
Joerg
2017-02-25 16:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by baloonon
Post by Joerg
Post by baloonon
The wine world does a weak job in handling issues of evaluation,
but to be honest I think the beer world tends to be behind even
them. It's sort of funny because there's a strong strain of
engineers and science types in the beer fan world, and they
ought to be more sensitive to a lot of the errors people make
and the way they get made.
I'm guessing that it's because there's a strong desire for
explanation and certainty among many of those types, and
that causes a bias which overrides sound thinking.
Not universally so, of course -- I think the people at brulosophy.com
tend to take the right approach.
I am an engineer myself but would never be a good beer judge. I
have my preferences and there are certain beer styles I like.
So far I've been just a "serial brewer", making two new batches
every time the loads get transferred to secondary. Two brews on
the same day. Other brewers around this neighborhood are a
lot more meticulous and fine-tune just
about everything, spending all day on one batch. I only become
meticulous when it comes to sanitation or equipment like the
wine fridge turned beer fridge. That now has controls inside
that look like they came off an aircraft.
I'm not a hard core controller of variables, but I think there's
something pretty cool about people who go all out and build the
equipment and create the methods for doing that kind of thing. I'd be
really happy if someone gave me a stainless multi-section home brewery
with precise volume and temperature controls, pH measuring tools, and a
well-tuned software suite for easy input and output of weights for
everything from grain to water treatment chemicals.
I just wanted to make my life easier. The fridge was a lot of work,
sometimes hard on my lower back. However, now I do not have to worry
about a hot summer creating trouble for my brews and don't have to run
the pellet stove during winter just for the fermenters anymore. Other
tools are simple, like the meat thermometer that can radio the water or
wort temperature upstairs so I don't have to spend so much time waiting
around. The receiver lets me key in an alert temperature where it will
beep. Other than about $20 all it took was some time at the work bench
to make this:

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Post by baloonon
The one thing I find annoying is when people who do this get a false
sense of precision. I think there's a higher degree of variability in
malt, hops and yeast than some acknowledge, and there's often varability
in methods or equipment that doesn't get noticed. Most of all, I think
qualitative judgments are really hard to nail down, and a lot of flaws
creep in due to bad evaluation practices.
I guess the main thing is how well people can separate the results from
the inputs. If the hardware and methods help you enjoy your beer,
you're doing it right -- if all that shrinks the amount of beer you're
enjoying due to hyperanalysis, rigid setting of expectations, and the
like, then you're doing it wrong.
Precision is nowadays often perceived as higher than it really is. For
example, in brewing you need a fairly precise temperature measurement
during mashing and steeping. The newfangled digital thermometers
seemingly show temperatures to a 10th of a degree but that is deceiving.
They are usually operating with a fairly sloppy NTC resistor as the
sensor and can be several degrees Fahrenheit off. So they should be
calibrated at least at the boil temperature for the respective altitude.
Heck, even my hydrometers are off up to 0.003 but that doesn't matter much.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
baloonon
2017-02-25 17:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joerg
Precision is nowadays often perceived as higher than it really is. For
example, in brewing you need a fairly precise temperature measurement
during mashing and steeping. The newfangled digital thermometers
seemingly show temperatures to a 10th of a degree but that is
deceiving. They are usually operating with a fairly sloppy NTC
resistor as the sensor and can be several degrees Fahrenheit off. So
they should be calibrated at least at the boil temperature for the
respective altitude. Heck, even my hydrometers are off up to 0.003 but
that doesn't matter much.
There are also issues with uneven heating -- temps at the top and bottom
and inner and outer parts of the mash can vary significantly, and there
can be issues where the grain forms clumps and the interior of the clump
is significantly different.

Of course, it's possible to control for this, but then you're going
farther down a road of constant babysitting.

On top of that, I've read a fair amount about pH and water chemistry and
how much they potentially matter. Unfortunately, reliable pH meters
start to get pricey and the maintenance and calibration is a lot more
involved than hydrometers or thermometers. I have a water profile from
my water company, but I know that things can change depending on which
reservoir they draw from and occasionaly adjustments they make without
notice. In theory, I'd be best off starting with pure water and adding
chemicals to it, but that starts getting into the realm of
obsessiveness.

There's a guy AJ Delange on the forums on homebrewtalk.com who has some
basic rules for water adjustment that I like. He appears to have a lot
of in depth knowledge, but he's also very realistic about what most home
brewers are capable of knowing and doing, so he keeps things very simple
and notes that it's generally not worth stressing too much over it.
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