Characteristics of carbonation during bottle conditioning

[Andy]

Hi, guys. . . I have another quandary with my latest batch. I haven't bottled a batch of beer in a long time, I usually force carbonate. In the past I haven't been that successful with bottle conditioning.

This time, I was very careful to calculate the bottling sugar for the batch size, made sure it was all well combined and mixed with the beer, got the headspace perfect. Ok, I'm a bit paranoid because I actually blew up some root beer bottles this past summer so after 3 or 4 days I tried one (I know, it's supposed to sit there for a few weeks). I was really surprised, there was enough carbonation for a great head but alas, not quite enough for the beer.

I tried another one today (8 day mark) and - whoa - too much carbonation for the head! I mean, it came spewing out (not champagne style but kept oozing out the top). The carbonation level of the beer seemed about right.

So now I've put everything outside in the garage which is about 40 degrees. My thinking there is that maybe it will stop the yeast and hopefully the existing level of over-carbonation will be absorbed by the beer.

Is anyone familiar with the "perceived" carbonation vs the actual carbonation over the 3-4 week carbonation period? Put another way, do you think if I had just left it sit for 3-4 weeks in our 63-66 degree house that the carbonation would have continued to build or is there some sort of levelling process that goes on? I'm wondering if what I experienced as "over-carbonation" was actually just a phase, maybe over another couple weeks more would be absorbed. I believe I used about 5 5/8 oz corn sugar for 5 gal (porter style).

I can still bring it back in from the garage but I'm just worried about the over-carbonation.

Any suggestions?

- Andy

[Ecnerwal]

If you haven't bottled before the beer is done, things are fairly
predictable. Things only get unpredictable when there's the sugar you
intended for carbonation and there's also other sugar that wasn't done
making beer yet. Rather than getting overly excited about opening my
fermenters up a lot to check (and giving bad bugs more opportunities to
colonize them), I just plan on bottling no sooner than 3 weeks from
brew-day, making me an old cautious person. Lots of folks in a hurry get
away with much faster - most of the time. I vary between a week in
primary and 2 weeks in secondary, and just 3 weeks in primary. I'll give
it much longer if it's not convenient to bottle at 3 weeks - beer in a
closed fermenter is fairly safe for the long term (I use glass
fermenters - if you secondary it and use a glass secondary, that's fine,
and 6 months or more in there won't hurt a thing - bulk aging.)

Root beer, of course, is an effectively infinite supply of sugar, so
unless you stop the yeast it will explode.

Did you _fully_ chill (probably 8 hours or more) your 8-day test bottle
before opening, or open it warm/partly cooled? I get that sort of
spewing sometimes when trying to rush a bottle to drinkable temperatures
and not giving it enough time. With 8-24 hours in the fridge and no
agitation before opening, hardly ever a problem. Opening slowly rather
than "popping" the top can also help.

While it can be useful to bottle one bottle in plastic so you can
monitor carbonation progress without opening, (I don't, but it can be
useful) generally the best thing you can do is ignore the beer for
another 3-4 weeks (to infinity, or nearly) so that can get done. Put it
in a plastic bin if you have concerns about exploding bottles - that
will contain the mess, in the unlikley event.

I'd bring it back into the warm, and not worry about it too much, and be
sure to give it a day in the fridge before opening to test.

[Andy]

Post by Ecnerwal
If you haven't bottled before the beer is done, things are fairly
predictable. Things only get unpredictable when there's the sugar you
intended for carbonation and there's also other sugar that wasn't done
making beer yet. Rather than getting overly excited about opening my
fermenters up a lot to check (and giving bad bugs more opportunities to
colonize them), I just plan on bottling no sooner than 3 weeks from
brew-day, making me an old cautious person. Lots of folks in a hurry get
away with much faster - most of the time. I vary between a week in
primary and 2 weeks in secondary, and just 3 weeks in primary. I'll give
it much longer if it's not convenient to bottle at 3 weeks - beer in a
closed fermenter is fairly safe for the long term (I use glass
fermenters - if you secondary it and use a glass secondary, that's fine,
and 6 months or more in there won't hurt a thing - bulk aging.)
Root beer, of course, is an effectively infinite supply of sugar, so
unless you stop the yeast it will explode.
Did you _fully_ chill (probably 8 hours or more) your 8-day test bottle
before opening, or open it warm/partly cooled? I get that sort of
spewing sometimes when trying to rush a bottle to drinkable temperatures
and not giving it enough time. With 8-24 hours in the fridge and no
agitation before opening, hardly ever a problem. Opening slowly rather
than "popping" the top can also help.
While it can be useful to bottle one bottle in plastic so you can
monitor carbonation progress without opening, (I don't, but it can be
useful) generally the best thing you can do is ignore the beer for
another 3-4 weeks (to infinity, or nearly) so that can get done. Put it
in a plastic bin if you have concerns about exploding bottles - that
will contain the mess, in the unlikley event.
I'd bring it back into the warm, and not worry about it too much, and be
sure to give it a day in the fridge before opening to test.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Ahh, interesting, yes, I didn't think about the "beer sugars" vs the "bottling sugars". Thanks for that thought. In fact, I did take this out of fermentation earlier than I normally would have simply because I was (mistakenly, I think) trying to save some of the sugars to match my target FG. What you're saying (which makes sense) is that the fermentation needs to come to its own natural ending in order to make the bottling part of the equation predictable.

And also, as you predicted I had flash-chilled my 8-day test case so maybe that had something to do with it.

I'm inclined to bring them back in, but mm.. ok, how about this: if I chill a test bottle for 8 hours and test it and let's say it's PERFECT, just the way I want it. In that case, is chilling them to stop the bottling-fermentation going to be effective or do you think the carbonation character would continue to change as the various beer volume soaked up more CO2?

- Andy

[Jack Schmidling]

Post by Andy
I can still bring it back in from the garage but I'm just worried about the over-carbonation.

Get yourself some one liter pop bottles and fill them from your bottles.

You can then monitor the carbonation level by the squeeze test.

Never tried this with beer but it's the only way to make root beer and
ginger ale. When they get hard, you put them in the fridge and the
fermentation stops.

If you drink half a bottle, put the cap back on and let it sit out till
it gets hard again and put it back into the fridge.

With beer, you will have to determine what level of hard produces the
carbonation level that you want.

If they get too hard out in the garage, just crack the cap and let out
some gas.

Exploding glass is dangerous. Pop bottles are harmless.

js

Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver

http://schmidling.com

[Andy]

Post by Jack Schmidling

Post by Andy
I can still bring it back in from the garage but I'm just worried about the over-carbonation.

Get yourself some one liter pop bottles and fill them from your bottles.
You can then monitor the carbonation level by the squeeze test.
Never tried this with beer but it's the only way to make root beer and
ginger ale. When they get hard, you put them in the fridge and the
fermentation stops.
If you drink half a bottle, put the cap back on and let it sit out till
it gets hard again and put it back into the fridge.
With beer, you will have to determine what level of hard produces the
carbonation level that you want.
If they get too hard out in the garage, just crack the cap and let out
some gas.
Exploding glass is dangerous. Pop bottles are harmless.
js
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver
http://schmidling.com

Hmmm, I like that. I'll make a few 12oz plastic test cases. If nothing else it will be an interesting experiment in calibrating my beer fingers for just the right hardness:carbonation ratio. . . :-)

Thanks for the suggestion! Next time I will also go with plastic for root beer. Definitely seems like the prudent thing to do. In fact, gives me an idea to rebottle some of these little 6oz "kid size" water bottles we have. Perfect for root beer for the kids' lunches... ugh.. oh, so will root beer yeast wake up after I've stopped the fermentation the first time? Wondering if there's a way to stop the fermentation and make it shelf-stable.

- Andy

[Ecnerwal]

I've never actually tried it since I haven't made root beer since i
thought about it, but pasteurization should stabilize root beer -
achieve desired carbonation, heat it up to 130F, put it back on the
shelf. Might be too hot for plastic bottles, though.

As for your porter, yes, if you pulled it out of the fermenter before it
was done, you might want to leave it cold if you like the carbonation
where it is, and drink up sooner rather than later - or rebottle as Jack
suggests.

[Jack Schmidling]

Post by Andy
Perfect for root beer for the kids'
lunches... ugh.. oh, so will root beer yeast wake up after I've
stopped the fermentation the first time? Wondering if there's a way
to stop the fermentation and make it shelf-stable.

Never heard of root beer yeast and I have always used bakers yeast but
my Dad did and that's what home made root beer is supposed to taste
like. He used it for wine too but that's another story.

If you use a clean yeast, it will taste just like the stuff from the
store so what's the point? As it is you are starting with the same
chemicals. That's why we quit making it in favor of Gingerale where you
are in full control of what goes into it.

There is a "how-to" on my web site....
http://schmidling.com/appnotes.htm#Ginger Ale

You can use any kind of yeast but bakers yeast will not ferment in the
fridge.

Jack

Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver

http://schmidling.com

[Andy]

Post by Jack Schmidling

Post by Andy
Perfect for root beer for the kids'
lunches... ugh.. oh, so will root beer yeast wake up after I've
stopped the fermentation the first time? Wondering if there's a way
to stop the fermentation and make it shelf-stable.

Never heard of root beer yeast and I have always used bakers yeast but
my Dad did and that's what home made root beer is supposed to taste
like. He used it for wine too but that's another story.
If you use a clean yeast, it will taste just like the stuff from the
store so what's the point? As it is you are starting with the same
chemicals. That's why we quit making it in favor of Gingerale where you
are in full control of what goes into it.
There is a "how-to" on my web site....
http://schmidling.com/appnotes.htm#Ginger Ale
You can use any kind of yeast but bakers yeast will not ferment in the
fridge.
Jack
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber, Gems,
Nature, Radio, Sheep, Sausage, Silver
http://schmidling.com

Ah, very cool! I'll try that ginger ale recipe sometime. I love ginger, I make ginger/lemon tea all the time. . . Thanks!

[baloonon]

Post by Andy
Hi, guys. . . I have another quandary with my latest batch. I haven't
bottled a batch of beer in a long time, I usually force carbonate. In
the past I haven't been that successful with bottle conditioning.
This time, I was very careful to calculate the bottling sugar for the
batch size, made sure it was all well combined and mixed with the
beer, got the headspace perfect. Ok, I'm a bit paranoid because I
actually blew up some root beer bottles this past summer so after 3 or
4 days I tried one (I know, it's supposed to sit there for a few
weeks). I was really surprised, there was enough carbonation for a
great head but alas, not quite enough for the beer.
I tried another one today (8 day mark) and - whoa - too much
carbonation for the head! I mean, it came spewing out (not champagne
style but kept oozing out the top). The carbonation level of the beer
seemed about right.
So now I've put everything outside in the garage which is about 40
degrees. My thinking there is that maybe it will stop the yeast and
hopefully the existing level of over-carbonation will be absorbed by
the beer.
Is anyone familiar with the "perceived" carbonation vs the actual
carbonation over the 3-4 week carbonation period? Put another way, do
you think if I had just left it sit for 3-4 weeks in our 63-66 degree
house that the carbonation would have continued to build or is there
some sort of levelling process that goes on? I'm wondering if what I
experienced as "over-carbonation" was actually just a phase, maybe
over another couple weeks more would be absorbed. I believe I used
about 5 5/8 oz corn sugar for 5 gal (porter style).

That sounds like a fairly high amount of sugar, so that might be the issue.
In my experience, it's usually worth dialing back recommended amounts a
bit.

Sometimes foaming happens due to an infection, possibly in just the bottle
and sometimes in the whole batch. Not all infections cause bad flavors, so
it's possible any more superfoaming will taste great but just be a pain to
pour.

Some English yeasts seem to have a connection to weird bottling behavior --
I've read a number of reports of 1968 doing that, for example, although
other people swear it's never happened to them. It's possible it might be
that those yeasts are highly sensitive to the amount of oxygen that gets
introduced at bottling, or need a lot less bottling sugar, or some other
variable, which might explain why it happens sometimes and not others.

I've found that longer aging and long chilling before opening can often cut
back on the amount of foaming by a lot.

[Andy]

Post by baloonon

Post by Andy
Hi, guys. . . I have another quandary with my latest batch. I haven't
bottled a batch of beer in a long time, I usually force carbonate. In
the past I haven't been that successful with bottle conditioning.
This time, I was very careful to calculate the bottling sugar for the
batch size, made sure it was all well combined and mixed with the
beer, got the headspace perfect. Ok, I'm a bit paranoid because I
actually blew up some root beer bottles this past summer so after 3 or
4 days I tried one (I know, it's supposed to sit there for a few
weeks). I was really surprised, there was enough carbonation for a
great head but alas, not quite enough for the beer.
I tried another one today (8 day mark) and - whoa - too much
carbonation for the head! I mean, it came spewing out (not champagne
style but kept oozing out the top). The carbonation level of the beer
seemed about right.
So now I've put everything outside in the garage which is about 40
degrees. My thinking there is that maybe it will stop the yeast and
hopefully the existing level of over-carbonation will be absorbed by
the beer.
Is anyone familiar with the "perceived" carbonation vs the actual
carbonation over the 3-4 week carbonation period? Put another way, do
you think if I had just left it sit for 3-4 weeks in our 63-66 degree
house that the carbonation would have continued to build or is there
some sort of levelling process that goes on? I'm wondering if what I
experienced as "over-carbonation" was actually just a phase, maybe
over another couple weeks more would be absorbed. I believe I used
about 5 5/8 oz corn sugar for 5 gal (porter style).

That sounds like a fairly high amount of sugar, so that might be the issue.
In my experience, it's usually worth dialing back recommended amounts a
bit.
Sometimes foaming happens due to an infection, possibly in just the bottle
and sometimes in the whole batch. Not all infections cause bad flavors, so
it's possible any more superfoaming will taste great but just be a pain to
pour.
Some English yeasts seem to have a connection to weird bottling behavior --
I've read a number of reports of 1968 doing that, for example, although
other people swear it's never happened to them. It's possible it might be
that those yeasts are highly sensitive to the amount of oxygen that gets
introduced at bottling, or need a lot less bottling sugar, or some other
variable, which might explain why it happens sometimes and not others.
I've found that longer aging and long chilling before opening can often cut
back on the amount of foaming by a lot.

Well, I've tried a "few" test cases (hehe) and happily, I think your first comment about "flash chilling" it caused a lot of the creeping foam. Also, could have something to do with a bit of residual sugar. So far I'm pretty happy with things. I have about 3 gallons worth of bottles in the house and about 6 gallons of bottles in the garage. You've never seen such a hodge podge of vintage 32oz bottles, 24 oz, 22oz, 16, and 12 ounces... lol...