Legalities of Homebrew-- Part 2 (extremely long rant about Alabama law)

[Ricky Nickolson]

Well, I posted a week or so ago that I had emailed the state ABC officer to
get an official opinion of homebrewing here in Alabama. Here's the complete
saga, including the latest email from him today. I found it shocking. (my
emails are between the +++ signs, the replies are between the ***:

++++++++++++
Dear Sir:

Federal Laws and regulations explicitly provide for the "at home" production
of beer for personal and family consumption (
http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/info/faq/beer.htm ) 27 CFR sections
25.205 -- 25.206 worded as follows:

Beer For Personal or Family Use

Sec. 25.205 Production.

(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal
or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18
years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located
requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the
adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This
exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to
State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax,
for personal or family use may not exceed:
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults
residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult
residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in Sec. 25.207, corporations or
associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal
or family use.

In searching the available online versions of current Alabama Laws and
regulations I cannot find where the personal manufacture of beer is either
permitted or prohibited. Can you please advise me of the appropriate
sections of Alabama Law concerning the "homebrewing" of beer?

Thank you,

Ricky
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Here's the first response that I got from him:

**********
I'm not at my desk, but I believe that if you check Title 28-4-20, you will
find what you are looking for. It may not be mentioned in the law itself,
but as I recall, there is a cite in the caselaw that mentions homebrew. In
Alabama, it is illegal to make whiskey or beer, but small quantities of wine
(up to 5 gallons) can be produced. There was an effort a few years ago to
change state law to conform with federal law, but it was not successful.
Let me know if you need any more info.
**********


+++++++++
Thank you for your reply! I found something in the code that I think
applies, it lists "malted beverages" along with the distilled liquors, so
I'm assuming that the malted beverages would be beer. Strange that I can
make 5 gallons of 15% alcohol wine, but cannot make 5 gallons of 4% alcohol
beer isn't it? heh heh.

Also, I read further in the code, in particular 28-4-50, where it states:

Manufacture, sale, possession, etc., of still, etc., for manufacture of
prohibited liquors or beverages.
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation in this state to
manufacture, sell, give away or have in possession any still, apparatus,
appliance or any device or substitute therefor to be used for the purpose of
manufacturing any prohibited liquors or beverages.

(Acts 1919, No. 737, p. 1086; Code 1923, §4656; Code 1940, T. 29, §131.)
I assume that this means that all homebrew supply stores in Alabama (and
there are tons) are in violation of this law since they are selling various
ingredients and apparatus that are used in the making of beer?

I know you probably can't or shouldn't answer this rhetorical question, but
is homebrewing of beer for personal consumption kind of like jaywalking,
where it's against the law, but no one usually gets a ticket or arrested for
it? I mean, the other day I found a local Ace hardware store that sold malt
syrup beer making kits and glass fermentation containers to ferment it in! I
had heard that it was illegal, but I really am shocked to learn that it
actually is.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Before he could reply, I had done some more digging and found some more
information. I researched the Alabama code he quoted 28-4-20 (
http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-20.htm ) and
didn't really find anything that looked like it pertained to my originial
question, but I did find this
http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/21502.htm that quite
obviously stated that all of the 28-4-* rules were for DRY COUNTIES and
municipalities...not wet ones! Well, not to be taken aback, I emailed him
again with some more questions:


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hello again, sorry to keep bugging you, but I've been doing some more
digging. It appears to me that Title 28-4-xx is applicable to dry counties
and dry municipalities and not wet ones. The only thing that I found
contrary to this is that it refers to 28-3-18, explicitely forbidding the
production of distilled liquer and apparatus to distill it, but this title
section does not mention "malt beverages", only distilled liquers. Is this
correct? I realize that distillion of liquer is against federal and state
law, but there doesn't appear to be anything expressly forbidding producing
beer in wet counties/municipalities according to state law.

Thanks for your help.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And then today, his final reply:

***************************************
In response to some of your questions and comments...first, I agree that it
IS strange that you can make wine but not beer; I also think it's
interesting that federal law allows for personal production of such large
quantities of beer and wine (where state law doesn't). Second, the stores
in Alabama that sell the homebrew kits are in violation of the law
(apparatus), but this is not a high priority for our division; we don't go
out and look for such items. However, if we get a compliant, or an agent
comes across a location that is selling such kits, we normally just ask that
they remove the item from their shelves, and not sell it. Third, your
question about Chapter 4 applying only to dry counties...an old court case
(Lovett v. State, 1943), says that "the sections of the prohibition law not
repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet counties
consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with the ABC
Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either. Hope this
answers your questions.
*******************************************

So, that's it in a nutshell. Big Brother is finally here. Now, it is not
nessary to have laws which prohibit certain actions, it is obviously
necessary to explicitly PERMIT actions of the citizens now. Well, at least
maybe that'll make the law books a lot smaller, as I'm sure there are more
prohibited actions than permitted ones, huh?

Thanks for reading my rant,

Ricky






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[Scott T. Lindner]

I find this comment appauling: "Board's attorney, it seems that although
there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either"

What the fuck?! This is a FREE country, right? Do we need a permit to do
things that are not explicitly prohibitied? That's absurd! Do I now need a
permit to type this post to you since it's not explicitly prohibited? How
about having dinner in the evening? There's no law explicitly prohibiting
that either.

These people are begging for a[nother] revolt if they keep this crap up.

Scott

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Well, I posted a week or so ago that I had emailed the state ABC officer to
get an official opinion of homebrewing here in Alabama. Here's the complete
saga, including the latest email from him today. I found it shocking. (my
++++++++++++
Federal Laws and regulations explicitly provide for the "at home" production
of beer for personal and family consumption (
http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/info/faq/beer.htm ) 27 CFR sections
Beer For Personal or Family Use
Sec. 25.205 Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal
or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18
years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located
requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the
adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This
exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to
State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax,
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults
residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult
residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in Sec. 25.207, corporations or
associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal
or family use.
In searching the available online versions of current Alabama Laws and
regulations I cannot find where the personal manufacture of beer is either
permitted or prohibited. Can you please advise me of the appropriate
sections of Alabama Law concerning the "homebrewing" of beer?
Thank you,
Ricky
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**********
I'm not at my desk, but I believe that if you check Title 28-4-20, you will
find what you are looking for. It may not be mentioned in the law itself,
but as I recall, there is a cite in the caselaw that mentions homebrew.

In

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Alabama, it is illegal to make whiskey or beer, but small quantities of wine
(up to 5 gallons) can be produced. There was an effort a few years ago to
change state law to conform with federal law, but it was not successful.
Let me know if you need any more info.
**********
+++++++++
Thank you for your reply! I found something in the code that I think
applies, it lists "malted beverages" along with the distilled liquors, so
I'm assuming that the malted beverages would be beer. Strange that I can
make 5 gallons of 15% alcohol wine, but cannot make 5 gallons of 4% alcohol
beer isn't it? heh heh.
Manufacture, sale, possession, etc., of still, etc., for manufacture of
prohibited liquors or beverages.
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation in this state to
manufacture, sell, give away or have in possession any still, apparatus,
appliance or any device or substitute therefor to be used for the purpose of
manufacturing any prohibited liquors or beverages.
(Acts 1919, No. 737, p. 1086; Code 1923, §4656; Code 1940, T. 29, §131.)
I assume that this means that all homebrew supply stores in Alabama (and
there are tons) are in violation of this law since they are selling various
ingredients and apparatus that are used in the making of beer?
I know you probably can't or shouldn't answer this rhetorical question, but
is homebrewing of beer for personal consumption kind of like jaywalking,
where it's against the law, but no one usually gets a ticket or arrested for
it? I mean, the other day I found a local Ace hardware store that sold malt
syrup beer making kits and glass fermentation containers to ferment it in! I
had heard that it was illegal, but I really am shocked to learn that it
actually is.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Before he could reply, I had done some more digging and found some more
information. I researched the Alabama code he quoted 28-4-20 (
http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-20.htm ) and
didn't really find anything that looked like it pertained to my originial
question, but I did find this
http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/21502.htm that quite
obviously stated that all of the 28-4-* rules were for DRY COUNTIES and
municipalities...not wet ones! Well, not to be taken aback, I emailed him
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hello again, sorry to keep bugging you, but I've been doing some more
digging. It appears to me that Title 28-4-xx is applicable to dry counties
and dry municipalities and not wet ones. The only thing that I found
contrary to this is that it refers to 28-3-18, explicitely forbidding the
production of distilled liquer and apparatus to distill it, but this title
section does not mention "malt beverages", only distilled liquers. Is this
correct? I realize that distillion of liquer is against federal and state
law, but there doesn't appear to be anything expressly forbidding producing
beer in wet counties/municipalities according to state law.
Thanks for your help.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
***************************************
In response to some of your questions and comments...first, I agree that it
IS strange that you can make wine but not beer; I also think it's
interesting that federal law allows for personal production of such large
quantities of beer and wine (where state law doesn't). Second, the stores
in Alabama that sell the homebrew kits are in violation of the law
(apparatus), but this is not a high priority for our division; we don't go
out and look for such items. However, if we get a compliant, or an agent
comes across a location that is selling such kits, we normally just ask that
they remove the item from their shelves, and not sell it. Third, your
question about Chapter 4 applying only to dry counties...an old court case
(Lovett v. State, 1943), says that "the sections of the prohibition law not
repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet counties
consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with the ABC
Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either. Hope this
answers your questions.
*******************************************
So, that's it in a nutshell. Big Brother is finally here. Now, it is not
nessary to have laws which prohibit certain actions, it is obviously
necessary to explicitly PERMIT actions of the citizens now. Well, at least
maybe that'll make the law books a lot smaller, as I'm sure there are more
prohibited actions than permitted ones, huh?
Thanks for reading my rant,
Ricky
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

[Ricky Nickolson]

Amen! That was the height of our email exchange to me! I'm still researching
that "Lovett vs State" case law he posted about. I'm going to have one of my
lawyer buds look it up for me. Hell, I just might have to sue someone! (Boll
Weevil Brewery v. State of Alabama) heh heh.

Ricky

Post by Scott T. Lindner
I find this comment appauling: "Board's attorney, it seems that although
there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either"
What the fuck?! This is a FREE country, right? Do we need a permit to do
things that are not explicitly prohibitied? That's absurd! Do I now need a
permit to type this post to you since it's not explicitly prohibited? How
about having dinner in the evening? There's no law explicitly prohibiting
that either.
These people are begging for a[nother] revolt if they keep this crap up.
Scott

---
Boll Weevil Brewery email is certified Virus Free. *burp*
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

[Ricky Nickolson]

lol, plus, I wouldn't waste a bottle (full or empty) on the current
governor! I'm sure some of you have heard of his current ploy to raise
billions in new taxes to "save" Alabama...."if you don't vote yes, we'll
close schools and have to lay off some of the fat lazy government
employees...trust us, we just need some more of your money and we can turn
this state around"....

Ricky

eh... I'd say just make the stuff. Let your lawyer bud do the work
when you are arrested for it. I bet unless you wing a bottle through
the governors picture window, you'll never catch any heat over it.
Wait... I'm not advocating that!
Ed (grinning)

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[Todd Enlund]

Sounds like what jsut happened in Oregon last Spring. Sent all the
kids home for the summer a month early, took a bunch of highway patrol
officers off the streets, and let a bunch of prisoners go free. All
cuts designed to hit the voters where it scares them.

Post by Ricky Nickolson
lol, plus, I wouldn't waste a bottle (full or empty) on the current
governor! I'm sure some of you have heard of his current ploy to raise
billions in new taxes to "save" Alabama...."if you don't vote yes, we'll
close schools and have to lay off some of the fat lazy government
employees...trust us, we just need some more of your money and we can turn
this state around"....
Ricky

eh... I'd say just make the stuff. Let your lawyer bud do the work
when you are arrested for it. I bet unless you wing a bottle through
the governors picture window, you'll never catch any heat over it.
Wait... I'm not advocating that!
Ed (grinning)

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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

--

Todd Enlund
http://www.photografik.net/lonelyneuron/

"Bandits at 3 O'Clock"
"Roger. What should I do 'till then?"

[Scott T. Lindner]

I really hate to be so blatantly stupid. Maybe it's the time in the
evening, but can you explain the point? I get that it's always going to be
two wolves having a rabit for dinner but how does it relate? Sorry.. I'm
stupid tonight.

Scott

Feel free to quote this as much as you wish. to my knowledge I am the
originator
" A democracy, in its purest form, is well represented by 2 wolves and 1
rabbit 'voting' on what to have for dinner"
Michael R Houtz

[mikehoutz]

OOHHH< well in a general way it relates to how minorities are not usually
well served in a democracy, and are quite often villified and persecuted

Post by Scott T. Lindner
I really hate to be so blatantly stupid. Maybe it's the time in the
evening, but can you explain the point? I get that it's always going to be
two wolves having a rabit for dinner but how does it relate? Sorry.. I'm
stupid tonight.
Scott

Feel free to quote this as much as you wish. to my knowledge I am the
originator
" A democracy, in its purest form, is well represented by 2 wolves and 1
rabbit 'voting' on what to have for dinner"
Michael R Houtz

[Scott T. Lindner]

That makes perfect sense and applies very well here. Thanks for sharing. I
feel enlightened now. :)

Scott

Post by mikehoutz
OOHHH< well in a general way it relates to how minorities are not usually
well served in a democracy, and are quite often villified and persecuted

[bob zee]

Post by mikehoutz
OOHHH< well in a general way it relates to how minorities are not usually
well served in a democracy, and are quite often villified and persecuted

It's not my fault they were born as rabbits.
Hell, I'm Irish!

Nobody likes the Irish...

[Bart Goddard]

Post by Scott T. Lindner
I really hate to be so blatantly stupid. Maybe it's the time in the
evening, but can you explain the point? I get that it's always going
to be two wolves having a rabit for dinner but how does it relate?
Sorry.. I'm stupid tonight.

The phrase is "tyranny of the majority". And I wish this point
was brought home better in our dear public schools, because a
major construct of our American system of government was designed
to avoid this problem. People who scream ignorantly "this is a
democracy: majority rule" and worse, elected representatives who
cave into opinion polls of what their constituents want are
undermining our freedom.

Let's vote on these issues:

1. White people don't have to pay taxes.
2. Men who glance at a woman below the neckline are fined $50.

These referendums would pass "majority rule" votes. But they're
not right and they're not fair and they quash basic freedoms.

The solution to "tyranny of the majority" is "representative
democracy". The idea is to elect (one hopes) sensible, intellegent
people to congress and other offices, who will govern fairly.
Indeed, since some districts are not majority white, then
there is minority representation in congress and there must
be cooperation to get bill passed. I want to puke every time a
congressman fails to have the balls to do what's right, but
instead says "I have to vote what my people want." Hell,
they _want_ free money, beer and sex. It's his job to make
sure the roads are good, the trash gets picked up and their
jobs don't go away. He needs to make decisions that guarantee
_those_ things happen.

Likewise the electoral college system guarantees that in order to
win all of Nebraska, a presidential candidate must appease many small
groups within a state. He can't just say "well, I'll get 43% of
Nebraska without trying, that'll be enough, so I can ignore the
Nebraska Czechs and their petty issues." Nope, he's got to put together
a platform that appeases the Nebraska Czechs, in order to win the
majority of Nebraska or he loses ALL of Nebraska.

The fathers designed our government to pay attention to the little
guy, because at the time, they were the little guy. They gave
some power to the little guy. Not only do corporations (GOP) and
big government (Dem's) try to take it away, but so does the nonsense
of "majority rule".

Moral: Electoral College Good. Elected Rep's that make hard
and unpopular decisions Good. Reality TV Bad. Beer Good.

Bart

[Scott Lindner]

Dude... that's an awesome post! When are you running for office? ;)

Scott

Post by Bart Goddard
The phrase is "tyranny of the majority". And I wish this point
was brought home better in our dear public schools, because a
major construct of our American system of government was designed
to avoid this problem. People who scream ignorantly "this is a
democracy: majority rule" and worse, elected representatives who
cave into opinion polls of what their constituents want are
undermining our freedom.
1. White people don't have to pay taxes.
2. Men who glance at a woman below the neckline are fined $50.
These referendums would pass "majority rule" votes. But they're
not right and they're not fair and they quash basic freedoms.
The solution to "tyranny of the majority" is "representative
democracy". The idea is to elect (one hopes) sensible, intellegent
people to congress and other offices, who will govern fairly.
Indeed, since some districts are not majority white, then
there is minority representation in congress and there must
be cooperation to get bill passed. I want to puke every time a
congressman fails to have the balls to do what's right, but
instead says "I have to vote what my people want." Hell,
they _want_ free money, beer and sex. It's his job to make
sure the roads are good, the trash gets picked up and their
jobs don't go away. He needs to make decisions that guarantee
_those_ things happen.
Likewise the electoral college system guarantees that in order to
win all of Nebraska, a presidential candidate must appease many small
groups within a state. He can't just say "well, I'll get 43% of
Nebraska without trying, that'll be enough, so I can ignore the
Nebraska Czechs and their petty issues." Nope, he's got to put together
a platform that appeases the Nebraska Czechs, in order to win the
majority of Nebraska or he loses ALL of Nebraska.
The fathers designed our government to pay attention to the little
guy, because at the time, they were the little guy. They gave
some power to the little guy. Not only do corporations (GOP) and
big government (Dem's) try to take it away, but so does the nonsense
of "majority rule".
Moral: Electoral College Good. Elected Rep's that make hard
and unpopular decisions Good. Reality TV Bad. Beer Good.
Bart

[Mike D'Brewer]

Post by Bart Goddard
2. Men who glance at a woman below the neckline are fined $50.

Damned. There goes all of my beer money.... ;-(

Beer here,

Mike


--
sarge0503 at sbabootcamp dot commercial
www.schwedhelm.net/brew/

[Brett Hetherington]

Like I said,

"Asking a court clerk, a police officer or just about anybody
besides a lawyer you paid for yourself about law is like asking the Pope if
it's legal to screw your cousin with a condom. You know what the answer
will be, and you can bet it will be based on personal opinion!"

Ricky, you need to ask this idiot if he's renewed his communist party
membership lately.
Seriously, I'd take the bozo to task for this crap. Maybe even call a major
newspaper. It's scum like this that steal our freedom a little piece at a
time.
I'd caution everybody who reads this to not be surprised about this answer,
since this is definitive American Justice. If you're stupid enough to fall
for it, it's the law of the land.

-Brett

Post by Scott T. Lindner
I find this comment appauling: "Board's attorney, it seems that
although there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either"
What the fuck?! This is a FREE country, right? Do we need a permit
to do things that are not explicitly prohibitied? That's absurd! Do
I now need a permit to type this post to you since it's not explicitly
prohibited? How about having dinner in the evening? There's no law
explicitly prohibiting that either.
These people are begging for a[nother] revolt if they keep this crap up.
Scott

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Well, I posted a week or so ago that I had emailed the state ABC
officer

to

Post by Ricky Nickolson
get an official opinion of homebrewing here in Alabama. Here's the

complete

Post by Ricky Nickolson
saga, including the latest email from him today. I found it shocking.
(my emails are between the +++ signs, the replies are between the
++++++++++++
Federal Laws and regulations explicitly provide for the "at home"

production

Post by Ricky Nickolson
of beer for personal and family consumption (
http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/info/faq/beer.htm ) 27 CFR sections
Beer For Personal or Family Use
Sec. 25.205 Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal
or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18
years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is
located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to
individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the
production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production
of beer for use contrary to State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax,
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults
residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult
residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in Sec. 25.207, corporations or
associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for
personal or family use.
In searching the available online versions of current Alabama Laws
and regulations I cannot find where the personal manufacture of beer
is either permitted or prohibited. Can you please advise me of the
appropriate sections of Alabama Law concerning the "homebrewing" of
beer?
Thank you,
Ricky
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**********
I'm not at my desk, but I believe that if you check Title 28-4-20,
you

will

Post by Ricky Nickolson
find what you are looking for. It may not be mentioned in the law
itself, but as I recall, there is a cite in the caselaw that mentions
homebrew.

In

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Alabama, it is illegal to make whiskey or beer, but small quantities
of

wine

Post by Ricky Nickolson
(up to 5 gallons) can be produced. There was an effort a few years
ago to change state law to conform with federal law, but it was not
successful. Let me know if you need any more info.
**********
+++++++++
Thank you for your reply! I found something in the code that I think
applies, it lists "malted beverages" along with the distilled
liquors, so I'm assuming that the malted beverages would be beer.
Strange that I can make 5 gallons of 15% alcohol wine, but cannot
make 5 gallons of 4%

alcohol

Post by Ricky Nickolson
beer isn't it? heh heh.
Manufacture, sale, possession, etc., of still, etc., for manufacture
of prohibited liquors or beverages.
It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation in this
state to manufacture, sell, give away or have in possession any
still, apparatus, appliance or any device or substitute therefor to
be used for the purpose

of

Post by Ricky Nickolson
manufacturing any prohibited liquors or beverages.
(Acts 1919, No. 737, p. 1086; Code 1923, §4656; Code 1940, T. 29,
§131.) I assume that this means that all homebrew supply stores in
Alabama (and there are tons) are in violation of this law since they
are selling

various

Post by Ricky Nickolson
ingredients and apparatus that are used in the making of beer?
I know you probably can't or shouldn't answer this rhetorical
question,

but

Post by Ricky Nickolson
is homebrewing of beer for personal consumption kind of like
jaywalking, where it's against the law, but no one usually gets a
ticket or arrested

for

Post by Ricky Nickolson
it? I mean, the other day I found a local Ace hardware store that
sold

malt

Post by Ricky Nickolson
syrup beer making kits and glass fermentation containers to ferment
it in!

I

Post by Ricky Nickolson
had heard that it was illegal, but I really am shocked to learn that
it actually is.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Before he could reply, I had done some more digging and found some
more information. I researched the Alabama code he quoted 28-4-20 (
http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-20.htm )
and didn't really find anything that looked like it pertained to my
originial question, but I did find this
http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/21502.htm that
quite obviously stated that all of the 28-4-* rules were for DRY
COUNTIES and municipalities...not wet ones! Well, not to be taken
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hello again, sorry to keep bugging you, but I've been doing some more
digging. It appears to me that Title 28-4-xx is applicable to dry
counties and dry municipalities and not wet ones. The only thing that
I found contrary to this is that it refers to 28-3-18, explicitely
forbidding the production of distilled liquer and apparatus to
distill it, but this title section does not mention "malt beverages",
only distilled liquers. Is

this

Post by Ricky Nickolson
correct? I realize that distillion of liquer is against federal and
state law, but there doesn't appear to be anything expressly
forbidding

producing

Post by Ricky Nickolson
beer in wet counties/municipalities according to state law.
Thanks for your help.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
***************************************
In response to some of your questions and comments...first, I agree
that

it

Post by Ricky Nickolson
IS strange that you can make wine but not beer; I also think it's
interesting that federal law allows for personal production of such
large quantities of beer and wine (where state law doesn't). Second,
the stores in Alabama that sell the homebrew kits are in violation of
the law (apparatus), but this is not a high priority for our
division; we don't go out and look for such items. However, if we
get a compliant, or an agent comes across a location that is selling
such kits, we normally just ask

that

Post by Ricky Nickolson
they remove the item from their shelves, and not sell it. Third,
your question about Chapter 4 applying only to dry counties...an old
court case (Lovett v. State, 1943), says that "the sections of the
prohibition law

not

Post by Ricky Nickolson
repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet

counties

Post by Ricky Nickolson
consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with the
ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a specific
law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it,
either. Hope this answers your questions.
*******************************************
So, that's it in a nutshell. Big Brother is finally here. Now, it is
not nessary to have laws which prohibit certain actions, it is
obviously necessary to explicitly PERMIT actions of the citizens now.
Well, at least maybe that'll make the law books a lot smaller, as I'm
sure there are more prohibited actions than permitted ones, huh?
Thanks for reading my rant,
Ricky
---
Boll Weevil Brewery email is certified Virus Free. *burp*
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

[Mike C.]

ABC laws are there to generate revenue. Alcohol production and sales are
regulated so they can be taxed. ANY production or sale of alcohol without
paying a tax is prohibited. In many states, exceptions were granted for the
production of native wine for personal consumption, probably to appease the
farmers. Many states followed the Feds in extending this exemption to
home-made beer.

For Alabama, I think Ricky mentioned that there was an exception for
producing native wines (whether making wine from store-bought kits is legal
is another question for the Revenuers), but there's no mention of homebrew
(i.e., no specific exemption). So, homebrew would fall under the blanket
prohibition of untaxed production of alcohol. Since the law does not say
"thou shalt not brew thy beer at home," there's no specific prohibition --
just the general one. And, since the law does not provide an exemption,
it's not specifically permitted.

Is it time for the law to change? Probably, but that's up to the people of
Alabama.

Mike C.

Post by Brett Hetherington
Like I said,
"Asking a court clerk, a police officer or just about anybody
besides a lawyer you paid for yourself about law is like asking the Pope if
it's legal to screw your cousin with a condom. You know what the answer
will be, and you can bet it will be based on personal opinion!"
Ricky, you need to ask this idiot if he's renewed his communist party
membership lately.
Seriously, I'd take the bozo to task for this crap. Maybe even call a major
newspaper. It's scum like this that steal our freedom a little piece at a
time.
I'd caution everybody who reads this to not be surprised about this answer,
since this is definitive American Justice. If you're stupid enough to fall
for it, it's the law of the land.
-Brett

Post by Scott T. Lindner
I find this comment appauling: "Board's attorney, it seems that
although there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either"
What the fuck?! This is a FREE country, right? Do we need a permit
to do things that are not explicitly prohibitied? That's absurd! Do
I now need a permit to type this post to you since it's not explicitly
prohibited? How about having dinner in the evening? There's no law
explicitly prohibiting that either.
These people are begging for a[nother] revolt if they keep this crap up.
Scott

<snip of lots of good info to save bandwidth>

Post by Brett Hetherington

Post by Scott T. Lindner

Post by Ricky Nickolson
***************************************
In response to some of your questions and comments...first, I agree
that

it

Post by Ricky Nickolson
IS strange that you can make wine but not beer; I also think it's
interesting that federal law allows for personal production of such
large quantities of beer and wine (where state law doesn't). Second,
the stores in Alabama that sell the homebrew kits are in violation of
the law (apparatus), but this is not a high priority for our
division; we don't go out and look for such items. However, if we
get a compliant, or an agent comes across a location that is selling
such kits, we normally just ask

that

Post by Ricky Nickolson
they remove the item from their shelves, and not sell it. Third,
your question about Chapter 4 applying only to dry counties...an old
court case (Lovett v. State, 1943), says that "the sections of the
prohibition law

not

Post by Ricky Nickolson
repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet

counties

Post by Ricky Nickolson
consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with the
ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a specific
law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it,
either. Hope this answers your questions.
*******************************************
So, that's it in a nutshell. Big Brother is finally here. Now, it is
not nessary to have laws which prohibit certain actions, it is
obviously necessary to explicitly PERMIT actions of the citizens now.
Well, at least maybe that'll make the law books a lot smaller, as I'm
sure there are more prohibited actions than permitted ones, huh?
Thanks for reading my rant,
Ricky
---
Boll Weevil Brewery email is certified Virus Free. *burp*
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

[Scott Lindner]

States don't have to follow the Feds. If they did, then who are the Feds
making laws for if the states don't have to adhere to them?

Here's how laws work. Federal Law are laws that must be adhered to in all
of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. There are no exceptions,
it's the law. There are laws that prohibit and laws the grant rights. No
lower governing body can go against the grain of Federal laws that exist.
The states can only fill in the gaps. Since there's a Federal law that
explicitly grants the right of homebrew no state can take that away. This
is true between the states and counties, the counties and cities, and all
laws and legal contracts. It's a chain of command and you can't go against
the grain of someone with higher authority. In this case, there's no need
for more or less laws in Alabama. Federal Law already grants the right of
homebrew. Alabama could make a law to prohibit it but then it could be
challenged in court and it would win. This is how some states effectively
ban rights granted to us by the Federal government and Constitution. They
keep passing new laws that are slightly different than the previous to tie
people up in courts. Sure, they are always reversed but the states are
armed with a sleu of new laws to prohibit rights given to us by the Federal
government and the Constitution.

Scott

Post by Mike C.
ABC laws are there to generate revenue. Alcohol production and sales are
regulated so they can be taxed. ANY production or sale of alcohol without
paying a tax is prohibited. In many states, exceptions were granted for the
production of native wine for personal consumption, probably to appease the
farmers. Many states followed the Feds in extending this exemption to
home-made beer.
For Alabama, I think Ricky mentioned that there was an exception for
producing native wines (whether making wine from store-bought kits is legal
is another question for the Revenuers), but there's no mention of homebrew
(i.e., no specific exemption). So, homebrew would fall under the blanket
prohibition of untaxed production of alcohol. Since the law does not say
"thou shalt not brew thy beer at home," there's no specific prohibition --
just the general one. And, since the law does not provide an exemption,
it's not specifically permitted.
Is it time for the law to change? Probably, but that's up to the people of
Alabama.
Mike C.

Post by Brett Hetherington
Like I said,
"Asking a court clerk, a police officer or just about anybody
besides a lawyer you paid for yourself about law is like asking the Pope

if

Post by Brett Hetherington
it's legal to screw your cousin with a condom. You know what the answer
will be, and you can bet it will be based on personal opinion!"
Ricky, you need to ask this idiot if he's renewed his communist party
membership lately.
Seriously, I'd take the bozo to task for this crap. Maybe even call a

major

Post by Brett Hetherington
newspaper. It's scum like this that steal our freedom a little piece at a
time.
I'd caution everybody who reads this to not be surprised about this

answer,

Post by Brett Hetherington
since this is definitive American Justice. If you're stupid enough to fall
for it, it's the law of the land.
-Brett

Post by Scott T. Lindner
I find this comment appauling: "Board's attorney, it seems that
although there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either"
What the fuck?! This is a FREE country, right? Do we need a permit
to do things that are not explicitly prohibitied? That's absurd! Do
I now need a permit to type this post to you since it's not explicitly
prohibited? How about having dinner in the evening? There's no law
explicitly prohibiting that either.
These people are begging for a[nother] revolt if they keep this crap up.
Scott

<snip of lots of good info to save bandwidth>

Post by Brett Hetherington

Post by Scott T. Lindner

Post by Ricky Nickolson
***************************************
In response to some of your questions and comments...first, I agree
that

it

Post by Ricky Nickolson
IS strange that you can make wine but not beer; I also think it's
interesting that federal law allows for personal production of such
large quantities of beer and wine (where state law doesn't). Second,
the stores in Alabama that sell the homebrew kits are in violation of
the law (apparatus), but this is not a high priority for our
division; we don't go out and look for such items. However, if we
get a compliant, or an agent comes across a location that is selling
such kits, we normally just ask

that

Post by Ricky Nickolson
they remove the item from their shelves, and not sell it. Third,
your question about Chapter 4 applying only to dry counties...an old
court case (Lovett v. State, 1943), says that "the sections of the
prohibition law

not

Post by Ricky Nickolson
repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet

counties

Post by Ricky Nickolson
consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with the
ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a specific
law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it,
either. Hope this answers your questions.
*******************************************
So, that's it in a nutshell. Big Brother is finally here. Now, it is
not nessary to have laws which prohibit certain actions, it is
obviously necessary to explicitly PERMIT actions of the citizens now.
Well, at least maybe that'll make the law books a lot smaller, as I'm
sure there are more prohibited actions than permitted ones, huh?
Thanks for reading my rant,
Ricky
---
Boll Weevil Brewery email is certified Virus Free. *burp*
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

[Mike C.]

There are rights that are acknowledged by the Constitution and Bill of
Rights. There are Federal laws that have been enacted to expand these
rights to situations not explicitly stated in the C & BoR. The states can't
pass a law that impedes the rights of its citizens. If they do, people sue.

There are also privileges, like driving a car, buying and consuming alcohol,
and brewing, to name a few, that are regulated by Federal, state, county,
and city/town laws and ordinances. Federal law says you can buy alcohol if
your of legal drinking age. State law sets the legal drinking age and says
"oh, yeah, by the way, you can't buy beer or wine before noon on Sunday."
Counties come along and say you can't buy alcohol here at all (dry counties)
or you can only by distilled spirits from the county (ABC stores). Same for
cities and towns.

Federal law grants the PRIVILEGE of homebrewing beer tax free up to 100 gal.
for an individual of legal drinking age. If the States don't say anything
(i.e., no ABC law), Federal law controls. But, the States are free to
restrict the privilege (not the right) granted by the Feds however they see
fit. They can lower the limit to 50 gal. (or zero), but they can't expand
the privilege by changing the limit to, say 500 gal. for an individual,
since the Federal law provides the upper limit.

That's how laws work.

Mike C.

Post by Scott Lindner
States don't have to follow the Feds. If they did, then who are the Feds
making laws for if the states don't have to adhere to them?
Here's how laws work. Federal Law are laws that must be adhered to in all
of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. There are no exceptions,
it's the law. There are laws that prohibit and laws the grant rights. No
lower governing body can go against the grain of Federal laws that exist.
The states can only fill in the gaps. Since there's a Federal law that
explicitly grants the right of homebrew no state can take that away. This
is true between the states and counties, the counties and cities, and all
laws and legal contracts. It's a chain of command and you can't go against
the grain of someone with higher authority. In this case, there's no need
for more or less laws in Alabama. Federal Law already grants the right of
homebrew. Alabama could make a law to prohibit it but then it could be
challenged in court and it would win. This is how some states effectively
ban rights granted to us by the Federal government and Constitution. They
keep passing new laws that are slightly different than the previous to tie
people up in courts. Sure, they are always reversed but the states are
armed with a sleu of new laws to prohibit rights given to us by the Federal
government and the Constitution.
Scott

Post by Mike C.
ABC laws are there to generate revenue. Alcohol production and sales are
regulated so they can be taxed. ANY production or sale of alcohol without
paying a tax is prohibited. In many states, exceptions were granted for

the

Post by Mike C.
production of native wine for personal consumption, probably to appease

the

Post by Mike C.
farmers. Many states followed the Feds in extending this exemption to
home-made beer.
For Alabama, I think Ricky mentioned that there was an exception for
producing native wines (whether making wine from store-bought kits is

legal

Post by Mike C.
is another question for the Revenuers), but there's no mention of homebrew
(i.e., no specific exemption). So, homebrew would fall under the blanket
prohibition of untaxed production of alcohol. Since the law does not say
"thou shalt not brew thy beer at home," there's no specific

prohibition --

Post by Scott Lindner

Post by Mike C.
just the general one. And, since the law does not provide an exemption,
it's not specifically permitted.
Is it time for the law to change? Probably, but that's up to the people

of

Post by Mike C.
Alabama.
Mike C.

[Scott Lindner]

Point well taken. You're right. The Fed just enabled a certain amount to
be made without the controls and to be tax free for personal enjoyment. A
state could certainly put restrictions on it. However, the Fed *could*
guarantee it in which case states couldn't do anything but that's not the
case.

Thanks for clearing it up. I wasn't thinking of the Fed's homebrew law
properly.

Scott

Post by Mike C.
There are rights that are acknowledged by the Constitution and Bill of
Rights. There are Federal laws that have been enacted to expand these
rights to situations not explicitly stated in the C & BoR. The states can't
pass a law that impedes the rights of its citizens. If they do, people sue.
There are also privileges, like driving a car, buying and consuming alcohol,
and brewing, to name a few, that are regulated by Federal, state, county,
and city/town laws and ordinances. Federal law says you can buy alcohol if
your of legal drinking age. State law sets the legal drinking age and says
"oh, yeah, by the way, you can't buy beer or wine before noon on Sunday."
Counties come along and say you can't buy alcohol here at all (dry counties)
or you can only by distilled spirits from the county (ABC stores). Same for
cities and towns.
Federal law grants the PRIVILEGE of homebrewing beer tax free up to 100 gal.
for an individual of legal drinking age. If the States don't say anything
(i.e., no ABC law), Federal law controls. But, the States are free to
restrict the privilege (not the right) granted by the Feds however they see
fit. They can lower the limit to 50 gal. (or zero), but they can't expand
the privilege by changing the limit to, say 500 gal. for an individual,
since the Federal law provides the upper limit.
That's how laws work.
Mike C.

Post by Scott Lindner
States don't have to follow the Feds. If they did, then who are the Feds
making laws for if the states don't have to adhere to them?
Here's how laws work. Federal Law are laws that must be adhered to in all
of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. There are no exceptions,
it's the law. There are laws that prohibit and laws the grant rights.

No

Post by Mike C.

Post by Scott Lindner
lower governing body can go against the grain of Federal laws that exist.
The states can only fill in the gaps. Since there's a Federal law that
explicitly grants the right of homebrew no state can take that away.

This

Post by Mike C.

Post by Scott Lindner
is true between the states and counties, the counties and cities, and all
laws and legal contracts. It's a chain of command and you can't go

against

Post by Scott Lindner
the grain of someone with higher authority. In this case, there's no need
for more or less laws in Alabama. Federal Law already grants the right of
homebrew. Alabama could make a law to prohibit it but then it could be
challenged in court and it would win. This is how some states effectively
ban rights granted to us by the Federal government and Constitution.

They

Post by Mike C.

Post by Scott Lindner
keep passing new laws that are slightly different than the previous to tie
people up in courts. Sure, they are always reversed but the states are
armed with a sleu of new laws to prohibit rights given to us by the

Federal

Post by Scott Lindner
government and the Constitution.
Scott

Post by Mike C.
ABC laws are there to generate revenue. Alcohol production and sales

are

Post by Scott Lindner

Post by Mike C.
regulated so they can be taxed. ANY production or sale of alcohol

without

Post by Scott Lindner

Post by Mike C.
paying a tax is prohibited. In many states, exceptions were granted for

the

Post by Mike C.
production of native wine for personal consumption, probably to appease

the

Post by Mike C.
farmers. Many states followed the Feds in extending this exemption to
home-made beer.
For Alabama, I think Ricky mentioned that there was an exception for
producing native wines (whether making wine from store-bought kits is

legal

Post by Mike C.
is another question for the Revenuers), but there's no mention of

homebrew

Post by Scott Lindner

Post by Mike C.
(i.e., no specific exemption). So, homebrew would fall under the

blanket

Post by Scott Lindner

Post by Mike C.
prohibition of untaxed production of alcohol. Since the law does not

say

Post by Scott Lindner

Post by Mike C.
"thou shalt not brew thy beer at home," there's no specific

prohibition --

Post by Scott Lindner

Post by Mike C.
just the general one. And, since the law does not provide an exemption,
it's not specifically permitted.
Is it time for the law to change? Probably, but that's up to the people

of

Post by Mike C.
Alabama.
Mike C.

[Wesley Brooks]

Post by Mike C.
Federal law grants the PRIVILEGE of homebrewing beer tax free up to 100 gal.
for an individual of legal drinking age. If the States don't say anything
(i.e., no ABC law), Federal law controls. But, the States are free to
restrict the privilege (not the right) granted by the Feds however they see
fit. They can lower the limit to 50 gal. (or zero), but they can't expand
the privilege by changing the limit to, say 500 gal. for an individual,
since the Federal law provides the upper limit.
That's how laws work.
Mike C.

Not always. States are free to make and enforce laws as they see fit,
as long as they don't violate the US Constitution. As an example, here
in Alaska, a recent court ruling confirmed that the privacy clause in
the Alaska Constitution allows individuals to posess up to four ounces
of marijuana in their home for personal use. Though such posession is
still illegal inder federal law, only federal agencies (FBI, ATF,
etc.) will enforce that law. As far as state and local authorities are
concerned, posession of the four ounces is legal. As the FBI has no
interest in pursuing individual users, such posession is legal. Well,
maybe allowable or "de facto legal" is a better term.

I will now become invisible.
-Wesley

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Scott Lindner
States don't have to follow the Feds. If they did, then who are the Feds
making laws for if the states don't have to adhere to them?
Here's how laws work. Federal Law are laws that must be adhered to in all
of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. There are no exceptions,
it's the law. There are laws that prohibit and laws the grant rights. No
lower governing body can go against the grain of Federal laws that exist.
The states can only fill in the gaps. Since there's a Federal law that
explicitly grants the right of homebrew no state can take that away.

Except that the federal version of the law specifically says that states
may choose to override it with their own local ones. Normally you are
correct in that the federal law will trump anything the states say, but
in this case it's the other way around because the federal law says they
can.


John.

[Brett Hetherington]

And here is where it must be presumed that it is legal to brew in the state
of Alabama, unless you are in a dry county.
In the absence of any specific prohibitive legislation, Federal law
prevails. Ricky's "comrade" already stated that there are no specific
regulations against homebrewing, thus, a law abiding citizen must depend on
federal law to guide his actions.

Brew on in Alabama!

-Brett

Post by Scott Lindner
States don't have to follow the Feds. If they did, then who are the
Feds making laws for if the states don't have to adhere to them?
Here's how laws work. Federal Law are laws that must be adhered to in
all of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. There are no
exceptions, it's the law. There are laws that prohibit and laws the
grant rights. No lower governing body can go against the grain of
Federal laws that exist. The states can only fill in the gaps. Since
there's a Federal law that explicitly grants the right of homebrew no
state can take that away. This is true between the states and
counties, the counties and cities, and all laws and legal contracts.
It's a chain of command and you can't go against the grain of someone
with higher authority. In this case, there's no need for more or less
laws in Alabama. Federal Law already grants the right of homebrew.
Alabama could make a law to prohibit it but then it could be
challenged in court and it would win. This is how some states
effectively ban rights granted to us by the Federal government and
Constitution. They keep passing new laws that are slightly different
than the previous to tie people up in courts. Sure, they are always
reversed but the states are armed with a sleu of new laws to prohibit
rights given to us by the Federal government and the Constitution.
Scott

Post by Mike C.
ABC laws are there to generate revenue. Alcohol production and sales
are regulated so they can be taxed. ANY production or sale of
alcohol without paying a tax is prohibited. In many states,
exceptions were granted for

the

Post by Mike C.
production of native wine for personal consumption, probably to
appease

the

Post by Mike C.
farmers. Many states followed the Feds in extending this exemption
to home-made beer.
For Alabama, I think Ricky mentioned that there was an exception for
producing native wines (whether making wine from store-bought kits is

legal

Post by Mike C.
is another question for the Revenuers), but there's no mention of
homebrew (i.e., no specific exemption). So, homebrew would fall
under the blanket prohibition of untaxed production of alcohol.
Since the law does not say "thou shalt not brew thy beer at home,"
there's no specific prohibition -- just the general one. And, since
the law does not provide an exemption, it's not specifically
permitted.
Is it time for the law to change? Probably, but that's up to the
people

of

Post by Mike C.
Alabama.
Mike C.

Post by Brett Hetherington
Like I said,
"Asking a court clerk, a police officer or just about anybody
besides a lawyer you paid for yourself about law is like asking the Pope

if

Post by Brett Hetherington
it's legal to screw your cousin with a condom. You know what the
answer will be, and you can bet it will be based on personal
opinion!"
Ricky, you need to ask this idiot if he's renewed his communist
party membership lately.
Seriously, I'd take the bozo to task for this crap. Maybe even call a

major

Post by Brett Hetherington
newspaper. It's scum like this that steal our freedom a little
piece at

a

Post by Mike C.

Post by Brett Hetherington
time.
I'd caution everybody who reads this to not be surprised about this

answer,

Post by Brett Hetherington
since this is definitive American Justice. If you're stupid enough
to

fall

Post by Mike C.

Post by Brett Hetherington
for it, it's the law of the land.
-Brett

Post by Scott T. Lindner
I find this comment appauling: "Board's attorney, it seems that
although there is not a specific law that
prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either"
What the fuck?! This is a FREE country, right? Do we need a
permit to do things that are not explicitly prohibitied? That's
absurd! Do I now need a permit to type this post to you since
it's not explicitly prohibited? How about having dinner in the
evening? There's no law explicitly prohibiting that either.
These people are begging for a[nother] revolt if they keep this crap up.
Scott

<snip of lots of good info to save bandwidth>

Post by Brett Hetherington

Post by Scott T. Lindner

Post by Ricky Nickolson
***************************************
In response to some of your questions and comments...first, I
agree that

it

Post by Ricky Nickolson
IS strange that you can make wine but not beer; I also think
it's interesting that federal law allows for personal production
of such large quantities of beer and wine (where state law
doesn't). Second, the stores in Alabama that sell the homebrew
kits are in violation of the law (apparatus), but this is not a
high priority for our division; we don't go out and look for
such items. However, if we get a compliant, or an agent comes
across a location that is selling such kits, we normally just
ask

that

Post by Ricky Nickolson
they remove the item from their shelves, and not sell it.
Third, your question about Chapter 4 applying only to dry
counties...an old court case (Lovett v. State, 1943), says that
"the sections of the prohibition law

not

Post by Ricky Nickolson
repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet

counties

Post by Ricky Nickolson
consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with
the ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a
specific law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that
authorizes it, either. Hope this answers your questions.
*******************************************
So, that's it in a nutshell. Big Brother is finally here. Now,
it is not nessary to have laws which prohibit certain actions,
it is obviously necessary to explicitly PERMIT actions of the
citizens now. Well, at least maybe that'll make the law books a
lot smaller, as I'm sure there are more prohibited actions than
permitted ones, huh?
Thanks for reading my rant,
Ricky
---
Boll Weevil Brewery email is certified Virus Free. *burp*
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.515 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/2/2003

[Ricky Nickolson]

Most states (all of them as far as I know) have a law which basically

says

"It is illegal to make alcohol without a state license." This applies to
everybody from Coors to Joe Bob down the street. 48 states also have a
second law which basically says "...unless you're a homebrewer".
Alabama (and Utah?) only have an equivalent of the first one.
John.

But here is where I'm having the "problem"...I can't find the first law you
mentioned for Alabama, and apparently the Chairman of the ABC board for the
state (and the boards Atty) can't find it either, except for "dry counties".

Ricky




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[mattoleriver]

Post by Ricky Nickolson

Most states (all of them as far as I know) have a law which basically

says

"It is illegal to make alcohol without a state license." This applies to
everybody from Coors to Joe Bob down the street. 48 states also have a
second law which basically says "...unless you're a homebrewer".
Alabama (and Utah?) only have an equivalent of the first one.
John.

But here is where I'm having the "problem"...I can't find the first law you
mentioned for Alabama, and apparently the Chairman of the ABC board for the
state (and the boards Atty) can't find it either, except for "dry counties".
Ricky

This may be the regulation that reserves that right for the state:

Section 28-3A-3
Authority of board to issue licenses to engage in alcoholic beverage
transactions.
(a) Subject to the provisions of this chapter and regulations promulgated
thereunder, the board is authorized and empowered to issue and renew
licenses to reputable and responsible persons for the following purposes:

(1) To manufacture, brew, distill, ferment, rectify, bottle or compound any
or all alcoholic beverages within or for sale within this state.

George

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by mattoleriver
Section 28-3A-3
Authority of board to issue licenses to engage in alcoholic beverage
transactions.
(a) Subject to the provisions of this chapter and regulations promulgated
thereunder, the board is authorized and empowered to issue and renew
(1) To manufacture, brew, distill, ferment, rectify, bottle or compound any
or all alcoholic beverages within or for sale within this state.

That sounds like it. Most other states will have a "...unless you're a
homebrewer" addition to that. It sounds like Alabama doesn't, which is
the problem.


John.

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Ricky Nickolson

Most states (all of them as far as I know) have a law which basically

says

"It is illegal to make alcohol without a state license." This applies to
everybody from Coors to Joe Bob down the street. 48 states also have a
second law which basically says "...unless you're a homebrewer".
Alabama (and Utah?) only have an equivalent of the first one.
John.

But here is where I'm having the "problem"...I can't find the first law you
mentioned for Alabama, and apparently the Chairman of the ABC board for the
state (and the boards Atty) can't find it either, except for "dry counties".

Are you saying there is no such thing as a commercial alcohol production
license in Alabama? I'd be very surprised if there wasn't.


John.

[Todd Swearingen]

Interesting treatise on the law, but rather than stray too far
off-topic I will simply point out that the federal law Ricky quoted in
his original post states the following:

"This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use
contrary to
State or local law."

So it really is up to the states. Based on my reading of the Alabama
code, I believe it is legal if you are in a wet county and you are not
selling it. As a homebrewer in Alabama though, I would feel more
comfortable if the law was more clear and/or had a specific provision
for homebrew.

Todd

p.s. Ricky if you happen to live in northern Alabama, drop me an
email. There is a homebrew club in the area.

Post by Scott Lindner
States don't have to follow the Feds. If they did, then who are the Feds
making laws for if the states don't have to adhere to them?
Here's how laws work. Federal Law are laws that must be adhered to in all
of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. There are no exceptions,
it's the law. There are laws that prohibit and laws the grant rights. No
lower governing body can go against the grain of Federal laws that exist.
The states can only fill in the gaps. Since there's a Federal law that
explicitly grants the right of homebrew no state can take that away. This
is true between the states and counties, the counties and cities, and all
laws and legal contracts. It's a chain of command and you can't go against
the grain of someone with higher authority. In this case, there's no need
for more or less laws in Alabama. Federal Law already grants the right of
homebrew. Alabama could make a law to prohibit it but then it could be
challenged in court and it would win. This is how some states effectively
ban rights granted to us by the Federal government and Constitution. They
keep passing new laws that are slightly different than the previous to tie
people up in courts. Sure, they are always reversed but the states are
armed with a sleu of new laws to prohibit rights given to us by the Federal
government and the Constitution.
Scott

[Scott Lindner]

Yeah.. I realized that from what a couple of other posts. The law is there
pretty much to say that the Federal government doesn't care but it does not
necessarily make it a granted privelege or right. Which is a
misunderstanding on my part.

Scott

Post by Todd Swearingen
Interesting treatise on the law, but rather than stray too far
off-topic I will simply point out that the federal law Ricky quoted in
"This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use
contrary to
State or local law."
So it really is up to the states. Based on my reading of the Alabama
code, I believe it is legal if you are in a wet county and you are not
selling it. As a homebrewer in Alabama though, I would feel more
comfortable if the law was more clear and/or had a specific provision
for homebrew.
Todd
p.s. Ricky if you happen to live in northern Alabama, drop me an
email. There is a homebrew club in the area.

[Ricky Nickolson]

I'm not in northern Ala, but I did sign up for a yahoo listserver for the
one that I think you're speaking of. :-)

Ricky

Post by Todd Swearingen
Interesting treatise on the law, but rather than stray too far
off-topic I will simply point out that the federal law Ricky quoted in
"This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use
contrary to
State or local law."
So it really is up to the states. Based on my reading of the Alabama
code, I believe it is legal if you are in a wet county and you are not
selling it. As a homebrewer in Alabama though, I would feel more
comfortable if the law was more clear and/or had a specific provision
for homebrew.
Todd
p.s. Ricky if you happen to live in northern Alabama, drop me an
email. There is a homebrew club in the area.

Post by Scott Lindner
States don't have to follow the Feds. If they did, then who are the Feds
making laws for if the states don't have to adhere to them?
Here's how laws work. Federal Law are laws that must be adhered to in all
of the 50 states and the District of Columbia. There are no exceptions,
it's the law. There are laws that prohibit and laws the grant rights.

No

Post by Todd Swearingen

Post by Scott Lindner
lower governing body can go against the grain of Federal laws that exist.
The states can only fill in the gaps. Since there's a Federal law that
explicitly grants the right of homebrew no state can take that away.

This

Post by Todd Swearingen

Post by Scott Lindner
is true between the states and counties, the counties and cities, and all
laws and legal contracts. It's a chain of command and you can't go against
the grain of someone with higher authority. In this case, there's no need
for more or less laws in Alabama. Federal Law already grants the right of
homebrew. Alabama could make a law to prohibit it but then it could be
challenged in court and it would win. This is how some states effectively
ban rights granted to us by the Federal government and Constitution.

They

Post by Todd Swearingen

Post by Scott Lindner
keep passing new laws that are slightly different than the previous to tie
people up in courts. Sure, they are always reversed but the states are
armed with a sleu of new laws to prohibit rights given to us by the Federal
government and the Constitution.
Scott

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[Tom Meier]

Post by Ricky Nickolson
I'm not in northern Ala, but I did sign up for a yahoo listserver for the
one that I think you're speaking of. :-)

Shhh, big brother is watching!


Hey guys, check out these tidbits on AL alcohol laws I compiled:

Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-200.htm
Summary: In dry counties, a person 19 or older can only have 1 case of beer
and 3 quarts of either Wine or Liquor in their possession, vehicle, or
home.. While transporting through dry counties, the alcohol must not be in
the passenger area, or in view of the passengers (i.e. you can't carry it in
the bed of a pickup truck unless you have a toolbox to put it in). This
explains why I've seen cops pulling over pickup trucks after they see them
carrying beer to the truck. Hartselle, Alabama cops love to do that.

Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-163.htm
Summary: Weird one. Prohibits the sale of Jamaican Ginger essence by anyone
except Pharmacist/Physicians.

Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-285.htm
Summary: You could lose your car if you are carrying homebrew (prohibited
beverage) in it

Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-51.htm
Summary: Here is a doozy.. Anything that looks like a still or part of a
still can get you jailed for moonshining, whether or not you used it to
distill alcohol.. In other words - having a counterflow wort chiller can
make you wish you had a tube of KY

Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-115.htm
Summary: Whoa! Have more than 5 gallons of homebrew in your possession?
Minimum of 1 year jail time...

Law:
http://alisdb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/1975/28-2-22.htm
Summary of (a)(3): No cold beer allowed in wet counties.. I sh1t you not!
This law is still on the books.. Not sure why it isn't enforced.

Law:
http://alisdb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/1975/28-2A-1.htm
Summary: Allows cities of >7,000 to vote wet even if county doesn't. This
is the 1984 law that allowed Decatur to go wet. It was the largest
alcohol-free city in the US at the time...

Map of Dry/Wet Counties/Cities in Alabama:
http://www.abcboard.state.al.us/wet.html

Link: http://www.abcboard.state.al.us/direct.html
Summary: If you are in Alabama, you might just be able to import that case
of Bigfoot you've been wanting...

Have fun, and thanks for the new sig line
Tom Meier


--
"In talking with the ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is
not a specific law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes
it, either. Hope this answers your questions."
-Alabama ABC administrator Emory Folmar on why homebrewing in Alabama is
illegal

[Ricky Nickolson]

Hey, I just sent you a private email. Wanted to make sure you got it.

Ricky

Post by Tom Meier

Post by Ricky Nickolson
I'm not in northern Ala, but I did sign up for a yahoo listserver for the
one that I think you're speaking of. :-)

Shhh, big brother is watching!
Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-200.htm
Summary: In dry counties, a person 19 or older can only have 1 case of beer
and 3 quarts of either Wine or Liquor in their possession, vehicle, or
home.. While transporting through dry counties, the alcohol must not be in
the passenger area, or in view of the passengers (i.e. you can't carry it in
the bed of a pickup truck unless you have a toolbox to put it in). This
explains why I've seen cops pulling over pickup trucks after they see them
carrying beer to the truck. Hartselle, Alabama cops love to do that.
Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-163.htm
Summary: Weird one. Prohibits the sale of Jamaican Ginger essence by anyone
except Pharmacist/Physicians.
Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-285.htm
Summary: You could lose your car if you are carrying homebrew (prohibited
beverage) in it
Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-51.htm
Summary: Here is a doozy.. Anything that looks like a still or part of a
still can get you jailed for moonshining, whether or not you used it to
distill alcohol.. In other words - having a counterflow wort chiller can
make you wish you had a tube of KY
Law: http://www.legislature.state.al.us/CodeofAlabama/1975/28-4-115.htm
Summary: Whoa! Have more than 5 gallons of homebrew in your possession?
Minimum of 1 year jail time...
http://alisdb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/1975/28-2-22.htm
Summary of (a)(3): No cold beer allowed in wet counties.. I sh1t you not!
This law is still on the books.. Not sure why it isn't enforced.
http://alisdb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/1975/28-2A-1.htm
Summary: Allows cities of >7,000 to vote wet even if county doesn't.

This

Post by Tom Meier
is the 1984 law that allowed Decatur to go wet. It was the largest
alcohol-free city in the US at the time...
http://www.abcboard.state.al.us/wet.html
Link: http://www.abcboard.state.al.us/direct.html
Summary: If you are in Alabama, you might just be able to import that case
of Bigfoot you've been wanting...
Have fun, and thanks for the new sig line
Tom Meier
--
"In talking with the ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is
not a specific law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes
it, either. Hope this answers your questions."
-Alabama ABC administrator Emory Folmar on why homebrewing in Alabama is
illegal

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[Alan McKay]

Hey Ricky, that's some awesome legwork there!

[Ricky Nickolson]

Thanks (it was "fingerwork" though, heh heh.). And, I'm not a lawyer, I just
play one on UseNet!

Ricky

Post by Alan McKay
Hey Ricky, that's some awesome legwork there!

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[JPullum127]

so ricky, instead of whining to the converted are you willing to do the work to
change the law?aha might be of some help, also the georgia folks who worked to
removed the %alcohol cap last year so they could try some of the more exotic
belgian and domestic big beers.

[Ricky Nickolson]

Well as a matter of fact....

I contacted the AHA last week and requested information on volunteering for
some of their political activist campaigns! So, yeah, I am.

Ricky

Post by JPullum127
so ricky, instead of whining to the converted are you willing to do the work to
change the law?aha might be of some help, also the georgia folks who worked to
removed the %alcohol cap last year so they could try some of the more exotic
belgian and domestic big beers.

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[Dan Listermann]

We, here in Ohio, are approaching the first anniversary of the doubling of
the alcohol limit for beer in this state. We went from 6 to 12 %. Now why
limit it at all is my question.

--
Dan Listermann

Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

Post by JPullum127
so ricky, instead of whining to the converted are you willing to do the work to
change the law?aha might be of some help, also the georgia folks who worked to
removed the %alcohol cap last year so they could try some of the more exotic
belgian and domestic big beers.

[Scott T. Lindner]

In every state I've lived in there's been weird and wacky laws regarding
alcohol production and consumption. My general observation is that all of
these laws are designed to make it difficult for people to get drunk. It's
not to prohibit them from having a beer or glass of wine with a meal but to
keep the mass of drunks off the streets and in their homes.

I know, it's completely stupid. People are going to do what they are going
to do. Haven't they already learned that prohibition doesn't work? Look at
the war on drugs. It's a lost cause.

Scott

Post by Dan Listermann
We, here in Ohio, are approaching the first anniversary of the doubling of
the alcohol limit for beer in this state. We went from 6 to 12 %. Now why
limit it at all is my question.
--
Dan Listermann
Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com
Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

Post by JPullum127
so ricky, instead of whining to the converted are you willing to do the

work to

Post by JPullum127
change the law?aha might be of some help, also the georgia folks who

worked to

Post by JPullum127
removed the %alcohol cap last year so they could try some of the more

exotic

Post by JPullum127
belgian and domestic big beers.

[Scott Lindner]

Well said. I couldn't agree more. It's not my effort though. It's the
other fellow's. If I were to fight something it wouldn't be about beer.
It'd be other more basics rights that no longer exist. but that's another
topic of discussion not fit for rec.crafts.brewing. Thanks for your
comments. I appreciate hearing other people that feel the same way.

Cheers,
Scott

I think the various non-sensical alcohol laws we have and have had in
this country are a prime example of the tyrrany that special interest
groups are able to excercise over the majority of citizens that just
want to be left alone. Prohibition was the extreme. The majority of
Americans didn't support prohibition, but it happened anyway, due the
the exertions of highly vocal special interests over a long period of
time. If it weren't for the willingness of the majority to flaunt the
law and drink anyway, Prohibition would have succeeded. Problem is,
in Alabama, where the Chief Justice is willing to break the law in
order to satisfy the Fundamentalists who I know are an extremely vocal
and powerful group in your state, there's little chance of passing any
legislation that will liberalise any prohibitions regarding "demon
liquor". However, I applaud your efforts and wish you luck.
Ed.

Post by Scott T. Lindner
In every state I've lived in there's been weird and wacky laws regarding
alcohol production and consumption. My general observation is that all of
these laws are designed to make it difficult for people to get drunk.

It's

Post by Scott T. Lindner
not to prohibit them from having a beer or glass of wine with a meal but to
keep the mass of drunks off the streets and in their homes.
I know, it's completely stupid. People are going to do what they are going
to do. Haven't they already learned that prohibition doesn't work?

Look at

Post by Scott T. Lindner
the war on drugs. It's a lost cause.
Scott

Post by Dan Listermann
We, here in Ohio, are approaching the first anniversary of the doubling of
the alcohol limit for beer in this state. We went from 6 to 12 %.

Now

Post by Scott T. Lindner
why

Post by Dan Listermann
limit it at all is my question.
--
Dan Listermann
Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com
Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

Post by JPullum127
so ricky, instead of whining to the converted are you willing to do the

work to

Post by Dan Listermann

Post by JPullum127
change the law?aha might be of some help, also the georgia folks who

worked to

Post by Dan Listermann

Post by JPullum127
removed the %alcohol cap last year so they could try some of the more

exotic

Post by Dan Listermann

Post by JPullum127
belgian and domestic big beers.

[Todd Swearingen]

I disagree. Based on my reading of the laws here in Alabama, the issue
is revenue related. The state wants to make sure it covers all the
angles and gets the tax it "deserves". But that is a seperate debate.
In fact there is a section in the law that covers military bases that
limits the amount of beer you can purchase on-base and then take
off-base because it circumvents the tax.

Todd

Post by Scott T. Lindner
In every state I've lived in there's been weird and wacky laws regarding
alcohol production and consumption. My general observation is that all of
these laws are designed to make it difficult for people to get drunk. It's
not to prohibit them from having a beer or glass of wine with a meal but to
keep the mass of drunks off the streets and in their homes.
I know, it's completely stupid. People are going to do what they are going
to do. Haven't they already learned that prohibition doesn't work? Look at
the war on drugs. It's a lost cause.
Scott

Post by Dan Listermann
We, here in Ohio, are approaching the first anniversary of the doubling of
the alcohol limit for beer in this state. We went from 6 to 12 %. Now

why

Post by Dan Listermann
limit it at all is my question.
--
Dan Listermann
Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com
Free shipping for orders greater than $35
and East of the Mighty Miss.

Post by JPullum127
so ricky, instead of whining to the converted are you willing to do the

work to

Post by Dan Listermann

Post by JPullum127
change the law?aha might be of some help, also the georgia folks who

worked to

Post by Dan Listermann

Post by JPullum127
removed the %alcohol cap last year so they could try some of the more

exotic

Post by Dan Listermann

Post by JPullum127
belgian and domestic big beers.

[Scott Lindner]

It's possible Alabama has different motivations. That's why it's great we
have different states. I haven't lived there so I don't know. But in all
of the other states I've lived in (Michigan, Wisconsin, New York, and
California) the motivation for the alcohol laws have been for anti-drunk
reasons. Not so much in CA though but it was very strong in WI and NY.

Scott

Post by Todd Swearingen
I disagree. Based on my reading of the laws here in Alabama, the issue
is revenue related. The state wants to make sure it covers all the
angles and gets the tax it "deserves". But that is a seperate debate.
In fact there is a section in the law that covers military bases that
limits the amount of beer you can purchase on-base and then take
off-base because it circumvents the tax.
Todd

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Scott Lindner
It's possible Alabama has different motivations. That's why it's great we
have different states. I haven't lived there so I don't know. But in all
of the other states I've lived in (Michigan, Wisconsin, New York, and
California) the motivation for the alcohol laws have been for anti-drunk
reasons. Not so much in CA though but it was very strong in WI and NY.

The real reason for alcohol laws is most likely for revenue purposes.

The public reason for the laws is to make the lawmakers appear to be
doing something about drunkeness, which gets them elected.


John.

[Scott Lindner]

That depends what laws you're refering to. The ones regarding taxation are
clearly for revenue. But take New York state where beer legally has to be
sold in a separate establishment as wine & liqour. The publicized reasoning
is anti-partying. It's to make it difficult to party and get drunk. Has
nothing to do with revenue at all. It's damn funny to go to a store and see
two doors side by side with a huge brick wall down the center so it is
legally two stores but really it's only one store.

In Wisconsin there's very strict hours that you can purchase alcohol.
What's the revenue motivation for that? There isn't. In fact, it would be
counter to revenue collection because if you make it harder for people to
buy alcohol you get less revenue from it. Again, the purpose is to keep
people from throwing a party and then realizing they need more to keep the
rage going. Instead, you have to plan your parties in advance and be well
stocked before the stores close.

Every state is different for a reason. This is good. I happen to have
lived in three that have strong anti-drunk laws. As odd as it sounds
California is the most forgiving in this regard.

Scott

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
The real reason for alcohol laws is most likely for revenue purposes.
The public reason for the laws is to make the lawmakers appear to be
doing something about drunkeness, which gets them elected.
John.
--
*** John P. Kolesar ***
*** Valley Mead Brewery ***
***********************

[Dave Bourke]

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Second, the stores
in Alabama that sell the homebrew kits are in violation of the law
(apparatus), but this is not a high priority for our division; we don't go
out and look for such items. However, if we get a compliant, or an agent
comes across a location that is selling such kits, we normally just ask that
they remove the item from their shelves, and not sell it.

So if you went ahead and brewed up a batch, you would technically be
in violation of exactly the same law. With exactly the same
punishment... ie. dispose of the beer. OK sir, no problem, I'll drink
it!


Regards,
Dave.

[Alan McKay]

Most people are taught in government public schools that we have
freedom of speech because of the First Amendment. And not the way it
actually is that we are endowed by our Creator with freedom of speech,

What do atheists get?

;-)

[Mark R]

Post by Alan McKay

Most people are taught in government public schools that we have
freedom of speech because of the First Amendment. And not the way it
actually is that we are endowed by our Creator with freedom of speech,

What do atheists get?
;-)

Heartburn and the heartbreak of psorisis.... <huge grin>
FP

Hey! That's not fair. Any atheists out there need my psorisis? :-)

Mark R

[Bob]

Post by Alan McKay

Most people are taught in government public schools that we have
freedom of speech because of the First Amendment. And not the way it
actually is that we are endowed by our Creator with freedom of speech,

What do atheists get?
;-)

They are still endowed by the same Creator. The only problem is they
refuse to acknowledge this fact...doesn't change the fact however.

:-|

[Tom Meier]

Ricky,

Excellent work. Although I live in Tennessee now, I used to homebrew
in Alabama for 3 years.

I am willing to help you in your effort if there is anything I can do.

Hey, check this out, if you get caught homebrewing (in either a wet or
dry county, as he portends that the judicial precendence say chapter 4
applies) here is your punishment...
---------
Any violation of Section 28-4-20 shall be a misdemeanor punishable by
a fine of not less than $50.00 nor more than $500.00, to which, at the
discretion of the court or judge trying the case, may be added
imprisonment in the county jail or at hard labor for the county for
not more than six months for the first conviction.
-----

If you knew an activist type homebrewer with six months to spare, it'd
be an idea to have them get caught homebrewing (i.e. call the ABC
board and rat them out).. The impending fight with AHA and homebrew
friendly lawyers would surely get him off with a minimum fine. This
would really test the tenuous assertion that they are making - a
judicial interpretation is always subject to change. If its not
expressly forbidden, and chapter 4 does not apply to wet counties, and
there is a federal law saying its legal, it should be a no brainer.

To my unknowledgable mind, it seems the intent of the federal law is
to allow the state to define what is illegal distribution and
production. (I.E. you can't homebrew in dry counties?) The Alabama
law doesn't say homebrewing is illegal - but the judicial precedence
says chapter 4 applies.

If chapter 4 applies to wet counties then "no person, corporation, or
business" is allowed to manufacture liquor or alcoholic beverages in
wet counites. So this assertion means that every brewery, winery,
distillery (if there is one), and brew pub in Alabama is in violation
of Alabama Courts interpretation of the law... This really sounds
stupid doesn't it?

Even if someone is convicted of homebrewing, it seems to me it is very
likely that a federal court would overturn a state court conviction.
I doubt they would even press charges, because Alabama has no legal
ground to stand on.

Jimmy screwed up when he had that law drafted. God love him for it,
but it should have been written clearer.

You will probably never get HB statutorily recognized with the current
governor, but its worth a shot. No politician in Alabama wants to
piss off the Southern Baptists, so they cater to the rural white bible
belters.

For a bill to be sponsored, you'd need a very liberal
representative/senator from a highly urban and cosmopolitan district.
Huntsville, Hoover, Shelby County, maybe Mobile.. where the politician
is less likely to catch grief over it. And you'd need homebrewers from
all over Alabama to write letters to their senators.. Most probably
won't because of fear of prosecution.

Good luck,
Tom Meier

[Ricky Nickolson]

Personally, I'm beginning to think that the Alabama homebrewing laws (or
lack thereof apparently, ie his saying that there are no laws saying you
can't do it, but no laws saying that you can do it) is the legal equilivent
to "if you don't stop playing with it, you'll go blind"...heh heh.

Ricky

Brewing and going blind here in Alabama.

Post by Alan McKay
Ricky,
Excellent work. Although I live in Tennessee now, I used to homebrew
in Alabama for 3 years.
I am willing to help you in your effort if there is anything I can do.
Hey, check this out, if you get caught homebrewing (in either a wet or
dry county, as he portends that the judicial precendence say chapter 4
applies) here is your punishment...
---------
Any violation of Section 28-4-20 shall be a misdemeanor punishable by
a fine of not less than $50.00 nor more than $500.00, to which, at the
discretion of the court or judge trying the case, may be added
imprisonment in the county jail or at hard labor for the county for
not more than six months for the first conviction.
-----
If you knew an activist type homebrewer with six months to spare, it'd
be an idea to have them get caught homebrewing (i.e. call the ABC
board and rat them out).. The impending fight with AHA and homebrew
friendly lawyers would surely get him off with a minimum fine. This
would really test the tenuous assertion that they are making - a
judicial interpretation is always subject to change. If its not
expressly forbidden, and chapter 4 does not apply to wet counties, and
there is a federal law saying its legal, it should be a no brainer.
To my unknowledgable mind, it seems the intent of the federal law is
to allow the state to define what is illegal distribution and
production. (I.E. you can't homebrew in dry counties?) The Alabama
law doesn't say homebrewing is illegal - but the judicial precedence
says chapter 4 applies.
If chapter 4 applies to wet counties then "no person, corporation, or
business" is allowed to manufacture liquor or alcoholic beverages in
wet counites. So this assertion means that every brewery, winery,
distillery (if there is one), and brew pub in Alabama is in violation
of Alabama Courts interpretation of the law... This really sounds
stupid doesn't it?
Even if someone is convicted of homebrewing, it seems to me it is very
likely that a federal court would overturn a state court conviction.
I doubt they would even press charges, because Alabama has no legal
ground to stand on.
Jimmy screwed up when he had that law drafted. God love him for it,
but it should have been written clearer.
You will probably never get HB statutorily recognized with the current
governor, but its worth a shot. No politician in Alabama wants to
piss off the Southern Baptists, so they cater to the rural white bible
belters.
For a bill to be sponsored, you'd need a very liberal
representative/senator from a highly urban and cosmopolitan district.
Huntsville, Hoover, Shelby County, maybe Mobile.. where the politician
is less likely to catch grief over it. And you'd need homebrewers from
all over Alabama to write letters to their senators.. Most probably
won't because of fear of prosecution.
Good luck,
Tom Meier

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[Jack Erbes]

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Well, I posted a week or so ago that I had emailed the state ABC officer to
get an official opinion of homebrewing here in Alabama. Here's the complete
saga... <snip very articulate post on AL home brewing laws>
Thanks for reading my rant,
Ricky

Nice post Ricky, not a rant at all. I think it is all pretty well
decided here then. You'll make some beer, call the ABC, and become
the hero of home brewing.

After you win your freedom on U.S. Supreme Court appeal, and recover
from the devastation this has wreaked on your life and finances, you
can brew up and RDWHAHB!

In the meantime, we will think of you when we hoist a cool one. Maybe
we'll even change "RDWHAHB" to "RDWHAHB and Free Ricky!"



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[Ricky Nickolson]

Lol...hmmm, lemmie think about it...NO! Maybe 15 years ago, but now, I'm
approaching 40 and too old to become a Martyr, heh heh. I think that I'll
just keep being extremely sneaky with it. Or, maybe I'll take up
photography, and get some good "action" shots of our politicians, then I'll
post the pics on a website somewhere and email the guys the link, along with
a reminder that it would be nice to see the homebrew laws changed. :-)

Ricky

PS, anyone got any good pics they'd like to send to me?

Post by Jack Erbes

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Well, I posted a week or so ago that I had emailed the state ABC officer to
get an official opinion of homebrewing here in Alabama. Here's the complete
saga... <snip very articulate post on AL home brewing laws>
Thanks for reading my rant,
Ricky

Nice post Ricky, not a rant at all. I think it is all pretty well
decided here then. You'll make some beer, call the ABC, and become
the hero of home brewing.
After you win your freedom on U.S. Supreme Court appeal, and recover
from the devastation this has wreaked on your life and finances, you
can brew up and RDWHAHB!
In the meantime, we will think of you when we hoist a cool one. Maybe
we'll even change "RDWHAHB" to "RDWHAHB and Free Ricky!"
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

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[Scott T. Lindner]

Pics of what?!? ;)

Scott

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Lol...hmmm, lemmie think about it...NO! Maybe 15 years ago, but now, I'm
approaching 40 and too old to become a Martyr, heh heh. I think that I'll
just keep being extremely sneaky with it. Or, maybe I'll take up
photography, and get some good "action" shots of our politicians, then I'll
post the pics on a website somewhere and email the guys the link, along with
a reminder that it would be nice to see the homebrew laws changed. :-)
Ricky
PS, anyone got any good pics they'd like to send to me?

[Cwrw42]

Home brewing being illegal in Alabahama is just the tip of the ice-berg,
when it comes to stupid alcohol laws in the USA, particularly wehn it comes
to profesional breweries.

My personal favourite Texas, according to their regs, beer and ale are
different things. Beer is less than 4% abw, Ale is greater than 4% abw.
Consequently to be legal for sale in Texas, a typical British Mild Ale would
need to be labelled as a beer, and a strong lager, such as a dopplebock
would have to be labelled as anale or a malt liqour.

Pretty stupid huh!

Post by Scott T. Lindner
Pics of what?!? ;)
Scott

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Lol...hmmm, lemmie think about it...NO! Maybe 15 years ago, but now, I'm
approaching 40 and too old to become a Martyr, heh heh. I think that I'll
just keep being extremely sneaky with it. Or, maybe I'll take up
photography, and get some good "action" shots of our politicians, then

I'll

Post by Ricky Nickolson
post the pics on a website somewhere and email the guys the link, along

with

Post by Ricky Nickolson
a reminder that it would be nice to see the homebrew laws changed. :-)
Ricky
PS, anyone got any good pics they'd like to send to me?

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Cwrw42
My personal favourite Texas, according to their regs, beer and ale are
different things. Beer is less than 4% abw, Ale is greater than 4% abw.
Consequently to be legal for sale in Texas, a typical British Mild Ale would
need to be labelled as a beer, and a strong lager, such as a dopplebock
would have to be labelled as anale or a malt liqour.
Pretty stupid huh!

A lot more states than just Texas have this law. In fact, from what
I've seen, most states have a law like that. You're right though, it
is stupid.


John.

[gfoster21]

... BUT, these distinctions are for
tax purposes only and do not affect the labeling on the bottle. ...

Don't know about TX, but in other states it definitely affects the label.
For example, Spaten Oktoberfest here doesn't have the word beer anywhere
on it and in small letters on the side it says "malt liquor" (which I
think falls above "ale" on the funky state law scale (beer, then ale,
then malt liquor). Some other LAGER I had recently (perhaps Pete's
Wicked Oktoberfest?) was the same with "ale" in tiny letters on the side.
Do wines have different names accorcing to strength? I've never noticed
it. Guess the wine industry has a better lobby...

In OH there is a law which says you are never allowed to give away
beer, even homebrewed beer. Therefore you must drink it all yourself.

[Scott T. Lindner]

How does that work in bars? They are giving you brew. Plus, does this mean
you can't buy someone a drink at a bar?

Scott

Post by gfoster21
In OH there is a law which says you are never allowed to give away
beer, even homebrewed beer. Therefore you must drink it all yourself.

[Derric]

Hmm... almost started a new thread, but why? ... :)

Just wanted to point out an NPR story this morning about some wineries
that are trying to fight the "no" interstate shipping of wine laws (that
23 states have).
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1424309
(Note, the story is an audio clip, so if you have a sound challenged
computer like mine you'll have to pass...).

If I remember the details, their basis of the lawsuit was restriction of
interstate trade. It made a passing reference to the fact that after
prohibition, congress "allowed" the states to regulate THIS ONE PRODUCT
(alcohol) differently than other products. I suppose they are calling
this exception into question. I hope they win and all the wonky laws
are wiped out! :) Yeah right.

I don't suppose there's any chance that beer would ultimately be
included in any resolution.....

[Ricky Nickolson]

Shhhhhhhh! It's not beer, remember? It's Barley Wine!

Ricky


"Derric" <***@removethis.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@bhm29.hiwaay.net...

...MAJOR SNIPAGE......

Post by Derric
I don't suppose there's any chance that beer would ultimately be
included in any resolution.....

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[mattoleriver]

Post by Derric
Hmm... almost started a new thread, but why? ... :)
Just wanted to point out an NPR story this morning about some wineries
that are trying to fight the "no" interstate shipping of wine laws (that
23 states have).

Maybe this would be another good area for Indians to exploit. Gambling,
fireworks, tax-free cigarettes, and craft beers---boy howdy, it don't get no
better'n that! {;o)
George

[Ricky Nickolson]

Hey...excellant idea! I'm part Native American, I've been waiting for an
excuse to seek some tribal affiliation and research my roots. Maybe my
little 1/2 acre plot can be my own little reservation...hmmm...gambling and
homebrew! Hell, maybe I'll form my own state or something (State of
Confusion? State of Euphoria?) :-D


Ricky

Post by mattoleriver

Post by Derric
Hmm... almost started a new thread, but why? ... :)
Just wanted to point out an NPR story this morning about some wineries
that are trying to fight the "no" interstate shipping of wine laws (that
23 states have).

Maybe this would be another good area for Indians to exploit. Gambling,
fireworks, tax-free cigarettes, and craft beers---boy howdy, it don't get no
better'n that! {;o)
George

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[Ed Edelenbos]

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Hey...excellant idea! I'm part Native American, I've been waiting for an
excuse to seek some tribal affiliation and research my roots. Maybe my
little 1/2 acre plot can be my own little reservation...hmmm...gambling and
homebrew! Hell, maybe I'll form my own state or something (State of
Confusion? State of Euphoria?) :-D
Ricky

Ricky, I've read your posts... State of Confusion... without a doubt.

Ed

(it's meant as a joke dammit!) Grin

[Ricky Nickolson]

lol. At first I though "damned, he's probably right!"...then reading your
"it's a joke part"...I thought "yeah, but he's probably right!" lol.

I love this newsgroup. This honestly has to be the most good natured and
helpful group of "internet people" that I've ever seen.

Ricky

Post by Ed Edelenbos

Post by Ricky Nickolson
Hey...excellant idea! I'm part Native American, I've been waiting for an
excuse to seek some tribal affiliation and research my roots. Maybe my
little 1/2 acre plot can be my own little reservation...hmmm...gambling and
homebrew! Hell, maybe I'll form my own state or something (State of
Confusion? State of Euphoria?) :-D
Ricky

Ricky, I've read your posts... State of Confusion... without a doubt.
Ed
(it's meant as a joke dammit!) Grin

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[Scott T. Lindner]

It's cuz we're all drinking while posting!

Shh.. don't say a word or they'll pass another law making drunken computing
illegal. ;)

Scott

Post by Ricky Nickolson
lol. At first I though "damned, he's probably right!"...then reading your
"it's a joke part"...I thought "yeah, but he's probably right!" lol.
I love this newsgroup. This honestly has to be the most good natured and
helpful group of "internet people" that I've ever seen.
Ricky

[Ken Anderson]

Post by Scott T. Lindner
It's cuz we're all drinking while posting!
Shh.. don't say a word or they'll pass another law making drunken computing
illegal. ;)
Scott

The charge is PUI - Posting Under the Influence
http://www.acronymfinder.com

[n***@gmail.com]

Hello All

I am a brewer from India. Looking for alcohol policies( Breweries and distilleries and wineries) for USA UK and any other countries. it would be a great help for me if someone will share the same.


Regards
A. Napa

[Baloonon]

Post by n***@gmail.com
Hello All
I am a brewer from India. Looking for alcohol policies( Breweries and
distilleries and wineries) for USA UK and any other countries. it
would be a great help for me if someone will share the same.

Here's an article:

https://thetakeout.com/america-alcohol-shipping-laws-explainer-1830234435