Rough spots in plastic fermenter buckets

[Joerg]

After 15-20 beers went through each primary fermenter bucket there are
some rougher areas on the inside walls of both buckets. It feels almost
like the beer etched the plastic. Needless to say, those areas are hard
to clean even with PBW. I have to keep wiping with the soft side of a
sponge almost until the skin on my hand starts to peel off.

What causes this? Any remedy? I could buy new buckets, of course, but
throwing them away on such a regular schedule is not a good thing
environmentally.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
After 15-20 beers went through each primary fermenter bucket there are
some rougher areas on the inside walls of both buckets. It feels almost
like the beer etched the plastic. Needless to say, those areas are hard
to clean even with PBW. I have to keep wiping with the soft side of a
sponge almost until the skin on my hand starts to peel off.
What causes this? Any remedy? I could buy new buckets, of course, but
throwing them away on such a regular schedule is not a good thing
environmentally.

I'm not sure I can picture what you're talking about, but I would be
inclined to say that it may be a result of overscrubbing or overtreatment
of the buckets. You may want to ease up on what you do to them. The
interior of my buckets has gotten fairly stained and there's some dried-on
residue that doesn't come off with easy scrubbing with a soft cloth, but I
haven't gotten any infections so far. After brewing I only wash with warm
water, rub a bit with a microfiber cloth, and then rinse and let dry.
Before brewing, I just rinse and then shake a bit of Starsan solution
inside to coat and then let it drain.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
After 15-20 beers went through each primary fermenter bucket there are
some rougher areas on the inside walls of both buckets. It feels almost
like the beer etched the plastic. Needless to say, those areas are hard
to clean even with PBW. I have to keep wiping with the soft side of a
sponge almost until the skin on my hand starts to peel off.
What causes this? Any remedy? I could buy new buckets, of course, but
throwing them away on such a regular schedule is not a good thing
environmentally.

I'm not sure I can picture what you're talking about, but I would be
inclined to say that it may be a result of overscrubbing or overtreatment
of the buckets. You may want to ease up on what you do to them. The
interior of my buckets has gotten fairly stained and there's some dried-on
residue that doesn't come off with easy scrubbing with a soft cloth, but I
haven't gotten any infections so far. After brewing I only wash with warm
water, rub a bit with a microfiber cloth, and then rinse and let dry.
Before brewing, I just rinse and then shake a bit of Starsan solution
inside to coat and then let it drain.

I only use the yellow sponges, just the soft yellow foam side and not
the green scouring pad side. However, I have used PBW on occasion but
the "etching" happened during primary fermentations. IOW it wasn't there
when filling the fermenter but was after transferring to secondary.

[Bill O'Meally]

Post by Joerg
After 15-20 beers went through each primary fermenter bucket there are
some rougher areas on the inside walls of both buckets. It feels almost
like the beer etched the plastic. Needless to say, those areas are hard
to clean even with PBW. I have to keep wiping with the soft side of a
sponge almost until the skin on my hand starts to peel off.
What causes this? Any remedy? I could buy new buckets, of course, but
throwing them away on such a regular schedule is not a good thing
environmentally.

Or economically. ;-)

Seriously though, I would at least avoid using the etched buckets for
fermenting or bottling. If they are hard to clean, then they are
impossible to sanitize. Those etches will still harbor microorganisms.

[Joerg]

Post by Bill O'Meally

Post by Joerg
After 15-20 beers went through each primary fermenter bucket there are
some rougher areas on the inside walls of both buckets. It feels
almost like the beer etched the plastic. Needless to say, those areas
are hard to clean even with PBW. I have to keep wiping with the soft
side of a sponge almost until the skin on my hand starts to peel off.
What causes this? Any remedy? I could buy new buckets, of course, but
throwing them away on such a regular schedule is not a good thing
environmentally.

Or economically. ;-)
Seriously though, I would at least avoid using the etched buckets for
fermenting or bottling. If they are hard to clean, then they are
impossible to sanitize. Those etches will still harbor microorganisms.

That is my concern as well. So far it looks clean in those areas after a
good PBW cleaning but that might change. Sometimes the fermenation lag
is two days and that leaves time for contamination even though it hasn't
happened yet.

[Howard]

Post by Joerg

Post by Bill O'Meally
Seriously though, I would at least avoid using the etched buckets for
fermenting or bottling. If they are hard to clean, then they are
impossible to sanitize. Those etches will still harbor
microorganisms.

That is my concern as well. So far it looks clean in those areas
after a good PBW cleaning but that might change. Sometimes the
fermenation lag is two days and that leaves time for contamination
even though it hasn't happened yet.

The good news is that with proper sanitation before transferring to the
fermenter and with a healthy population of yeast, it's hard for
competing microorganisms to get a foothold, so a scratched bucket isn't
necessarily going to be a problem. Even with a lag in airlock activity,
alcohol is being produced and the pH is getting inhospitable.

The bad news is that if they do get into scratches, it's really hard to
get them out, and there's no good way to know if anything is there until
a batch is already ruined.

[Joerg]

Post by Howard

Post by Joerg

Post by Bill O'Meally
Seriously though, I would at least avoid using the etched buckets for
fermenting or bottling. If they are hard to clean, then they are
impossible to sanitize. Those etches will still harbor
microorganisms.

That is my concern as well. So far it looks clean in those areas
after a good PBW cleaning but that might change. Sometimes the
fermenation lag is two days and that leaves time for contamination
even though it hasn't happened yet.

The good news is that with proper sanitation before transferring to the
fermenter and with a healthy population of yeast, it's hard for
competing microorganisms to get a foothold, so a scratched bucket isn't
necessarily going to be a problem. Even with a lag in airlock activity,
alcohol is being produced and the pH is getting inhospitable.
The bad news is that if they do get into scratches, it's really hard to
get them out, and there's no good way to know if anything is there until
a batch is already ruined.

I sure hope that won't happen during a Belgian Tripel. That is my all
time favorite beer.

[Graham Carter]

Post by Howard

Post by Joerg

Post by Bill O'Meally
Seriously though, I would at least avoid using the etched buckets for
fermenting or bottling. If they are hard to clean, then they are
impossible to sanitize. Those etches will still harbor
microorganisms.

That is my concern as well. So far it looks clean in those areas
after a good PBW cleaning but that might change. Sometimes the
fermenation lag is two days and that leaves time for contamination
even though it hasn't happened yet.

The good news is that with proper sanitation before transferring to the
fermenter and with a healthy population of yeast, it's hard for
competing microorganisms to get a foothold, so a scratched bucket isn't
necessarily going to be a problem. Even with a lag in airlock activity,
alcohol is being produced and the pH is getting inhospitable.
The bad news is that if they do get into scratches, it's really hard to
get them out, and there's no good way to know if anything is there until
a batch is already ruined.

I have the same problem in my buckets. I think that vigourous cleaning is likely to cause more scratches and make the problem worse. I have had some infection possibly caused by this but only in the bucket I use for secondary - supporting your view that rapid yeast activity keeps infection away.
I have solved the problem by the way I prepare the buckets. I use a steam wallpaper stripper with the outlet inside the inverted bucket. I put the siphon tube and any other items that need to be cleaned in there too. After about 10 minutes the outside of the bucket is almost too hot to touch, so anything lurking in the scratches and lining that has built up over them should be dead.

[baloonon]

Post by Graham Carter
I have the same problem in my buckets. I think that vigourous cleaning
is likely to cause more scratches and make the problem worse. I have
had some infection possibly caused by this but only in the bucket I
use for secondary - supporting your view that rapid yeast activity
keeps infection away. I have solved the problem by the way I prepare
the buckets. I use a steam wallpaper stripper with the outlet inside
the inverted bucket. I put the siphon tube and any other items that
need to be cleaned in there too. After about 10 minutes the outside of
the bucket is almost too hot to touch, so anything lurking in the
scratches and lining that has built up over them should be dead.

I get a little leery about exposing plastics to heat. Sometimes there
are health issues, sometimes there aren't, but trying to keep track
starts to get more complicated than I personally want to deal with. I'm
also a bit cautious about what it does to the structural integrity of
plastics -- I get worried that I'll warp something and it won't seal
right, just as I need to start bottling or something else.

For what it's worth, this seems like a fairly reasonable guide that
mentions heat issues with various types:

http://www.brewgeeks.com/homebrewers-guide-to-plastics.html