Grenading bottles

Post by Joerg
Folks,
Lost four bottles over the course of two days and this was a batch of my
all time favorite (and most expensive to make) beer, a Belgian Tripel.
Storage temps for carbonation were 75-80F and fairly constant, in a
basement room. Early on in my brewing I had already cut the corn sugar
back from the usual 5oz to 3-3/4oz, despite calculators showing a need
of around 6oz for the Belgian Tripel.
It's regular 12oz bottles, not as sturdy as Grolsch or German 500ml
bottles but they never did this before. Since the beer is too strong for
my wife at 7.5% ABV I don't like to fill bottles larger than 12oz (but
may now have to). I have made about 50 batches of various beers so far
and except in the very early days when I still used 5oz corn sugar I
never had a bottle grenading problem. Contamination doesn't seem to be
an issue either because the beer tastes good. The grenading happened
about 4 weeks after bottling so the carbonation phase should have been
over a long time ago.
Any words of wisdom?

I've had it happen and it's ugly. There's not much you can do but cool
the bottles as soon as possible to as close to freezing as possible to
save as much as you can. Treat each remaining bottle carefully, since
the glass may be much closer to the breaking point than usual. And from
experience I can tell you to expect more broken glass hiding sometwhere
bad even when you think you've accounted for all of it.

If you don't have fridge space for permanent storage, once they're cool
a cheap foam cooler or two with a gallon jug of ice will probably be
enough.

You don't think it's contaminated, which probably means fermentation
didn't finish completely. For next time, options include researching a
different yeast, pitching more yeast to begin with, researching optimal
fermenting temps, using a bit of yeast nutrient, using a bit of zinc,
increasing oxygenation at pitching, giving the fermentation even more
time, rousing the yeast mid-fermentation, water chemistry, and probably
some I'm forgetting.

Also at bottling time be careful about transferring yeast from the
bottom of the fermenter to the bottling bucket to the bottles. Cold
crashing the fermenter prior to transfer helps, as does a fining agent,
and it may be a good idea to leave a little more behind in the fermenter
and the bottling bucket than in the past to avoid having any bottles
with an extra dose of trub and yeast. Also be careful about adding
oxygen at this point, and watch the temperature that bottle carbing
occurs, because a high temp might be a source of overcarbing.

Joerg

2017-08-23 14:12:07 UTC

Post by Joerg
Folks,
Lost four bottles over the course of two days and this was a batch of

Post by Joerg
all time favorite (and most expensive to make) beer, a Belgian Tripel.
Storage temps for carbonation were 75-80F and fairly constant, in a
basement room. Early on in my brewing I had already cut the corn sugar
back from the usual 5oz to 3-3/4oz, despite calculators showing a need
of around 6oz for the Belgian Tripel.
It's regular 12oz bottles, not as sturdy as Grolsch or German 500ml
bottles but they never did this before. Since the beer is too strong

for

Post by Joerg
my wife at 7.5% ABV I don't like to fill bottles larger than 12oz (but
may now have to). I have made about 50 batches of various beers so far
and except in the very early days when I still used 5oz corn sugar I
never had a bottle grenading problem. Contamination doesn't seem to be
an issue either because the beer tastes good. The grenading happened
about 4 weeks after bottling so the carbonation phase should have been
over a long time ago.
Any words of wisdom?

I put it in an otherwise empty spare fridge down there and so far no
more kaboom.

Post by baloonon
If you don't have fridge space for permanent storage, once they're cool
a cheap foam cooler or two with a gallon jug of ice will probably be
enough.
You don't think it's contaminated, which probably means fermentation
didn't finish completely.

Of course, I can't say for sure about contamination but the Tripel
tastes great, no discernible off-flavors.

FG at the end of primary was 1.011. That was followed by four weeks in
secondary. Fermenation happens inside a chamber which is at a controlled
temperature. I set it to 68F most of the time. The bottom half for the
secondary fermenters is a few degrees colder.

Post by baloonon
... For next time, options include researching a
different yeast, pitching more yeast to begin with, researching optimal
fermenting temps, using a bit of yeast nutrient, using a bit of zinc,
increasing oxygenation at pitching, giving the fermentation even more
time, rousing the yeast mid-fermentation, water chemistry, and probably
some I'm forgetting.

It was Fermentis BE-256 dry yeast. Primary fermentation is very violent
with this Belgian-style yeast and I need a 3/4" blow-off pipe. 1/2"
wasn't enough. However, the attenuation was very good and after primary
it rested another four weeks in secondary where for more than the three
last weeks there was no remaining air lock activity at all. Primary is
10 days so it even rests there a bit at the end (air lock activity
peters out after 5-6 days).

Post by baloonon
Also at bottling time be careful about transferring yeast from the
bottom of the fermenter to the bottling bucket to the bottles. Cold
crashing the fermenter prior to transfer helps, as does a fining agent,
and it may be a good idea to leave a little more behind in the fermenter
and the bottling bucket than in the past to avoid having any bottles
with an extra dose of trub and yeast. Also be careful about adding
oxygen at this point, and watch the temperature that bottle carbing
occurs, because a high temp might be a source of overcarbing.

I am quite careful not to suck any of the white sludge (it is only a
thin layer) out of secondary when bottling. But the temps, yes, I think
next time the bottles have to go right into the fridge and then I set
that to maybe 68F. I have an external controller to be able to set it
that high.

I am also going to reduce the corn sugar from 3-3/4oz to 3oz. A little
less carbonation than usual on a Belgian Tripel should be ok.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-08-25 01:29:37 UTC

It was Fermentis BE-256 dry yeast. Primary fermentation is very
violent with this Belgian-style yeast and I need a 3/4" blow-off
pipe. 1/2" wasn't enough. However, the attenuation was very good
and after primary it rested another four weeks in secondary
where for more than the three
last weeks there was no remaining air lock activity at all. Primary is
10 days so it even rests there a bit at the end (air lock activity
peters out after 5-6 days).

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that some top cropping English
yeasts (1968, I think 1469) will often seem to finish fermentation -- no
airlock activity, stable hydrometer readings, etc. -- but when they are
bottled, suddenly spring to life and generate far activity in the bottle
than can be explained by the addition of a small amount of priming
sugar.

I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happens with some Belgian
yeasts too, not that I've experienced it myself. So it may be worth
doing some research and seeing if other strains are an option.

With the British yeasts, I remember that the brewers often do some non-
typical things, such as circulating the yeast during fermentation and
fermenting in open vessels. If I remember right (I could be
misremembering) they also tend not to do bottle conditioning in the same
way as a typical homebrewer.

At any rate, it may be worth doing more research on the yeast you used
and whether there's a need to intervene to keep the fermentation going
past the point where it would usually stop in order to make sure all of
the sugars are chewed up and the yeast is truly done, and it may also be
worth looking into cold crashing and fining to cut down on the amount of
suspended yeast.

Or, of course, it could just have been a one-time freak occurance, such
as happens in this hobby, and won't ever happen again.

Joerg

2017-08-25 14:41:06 UTC

Post by baloonon
... For next time, options include researching a
different yeast, pitching more yeast to begin with, researching

optimal

Post by baloonon
fermenting temps, using a bit of yeast nutrient, using a bit of zinc,
increasing oxygenation at pitching, giving the fermentation even more
time, rousing the yeast mid-fermentation, water chemistry, and

probably

Post by baloonon
some I'm forgetting.

It was Fermentis BE-256 dry yeast. Primary fermentation is very
violent with this Belgian-style yeast and I need a 3/4" blow-off
pipe. 1/2" wasn't enough. However, the attenuation was very good
and after primary it rested another four weeks in secondary
where for more than the three
last weeks there was no remaining air lock activity at all. Primary is
10 days so it even rests there a bit at the end (air lock activity
peters out after 5-6 days).

I wouldn't be surprised either if BE-256 did that, given its otherwise
rather "nuclear" behavior. I just wonder what it is that the yeast eats
considering that the FG is so low on the Belgian beers. Rarely much
above 1.010.

Post by baloonon
With the British yeasts, I remember that the brewers often do some non-
typical things, such as circulating the yeast during fermentation and
fermenting in open vessels. If I remember right (I could be
misremembering) they also tend not to do bottle conditioning in the same
way as a typical homebrewer.

Bottle conditioning is far too expensive for commercial brewers. Even
mid-size craft brewers have to fight for every cent these days. But the
taste is all worth it. Yesterday we had a Grolsch first, mainly to get
those flip-top bottles which otherwise would cost the same empty. It
used to be one of my favorite house beers while living in the
Netherlands but now that I brew again it tastes bland in comparison to
homebrew.

Post by baloonon
At any rate, it may be worth doing more research on the yeast you used
and whether there's a need to intervene to keep the fermentation going
past the point where it would usually stop in order to make sure all of
the sugars are chewed up and the yeast is truly done, and it may also be
worth looking into cold crashing and fining to cut down on the amount of
suspended yeast.

I do fining with moss already but the cold crash is a good idea. When I
pour a Tripel there isn't much of a yeast sediment or cloudiness to
worry about at the end. Unlike with the Saison where there is a whole
big fog layer coming out even while there is still an inch in the
bottle. That one was fermented with Lallemand Belle Saison and I like
the taste of that residue. Other people don't so I always make sure the
last part of the bottle goes into my glass.

Post by baloonon
Or, of course, it could just have been a one-time freak occurance, such
as happens in this hobby, and won't ever happen again.

I sure hope so. The one parameter that was different versus last time
was that the temps down there were between 70F and 80F while it was 65F
to 75F during the prior batch during bottle carbonation. Not much of a
difference but who knows. When opening the hiss, the head development
and the head retention were about the same.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Bob F

2017-08-25 18:06:42 UTC

Post by Joerg
I wouldn't be surprised either if BE-256 did that, given its otherwise
rather "nuclear" behavior. I just wonder what it is that the yeast eats
considering that the FG is so low on the Belgian beers. Rarely much
above 1.010.

What would the usual S.G. after adding the priming sugar?

Joerg

2017-08-25 20:02:30 UTC

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg
I wouldn't be surprised either if BE-256 did that, given its otherwise
rather "nuclear" behavior. I just wonder what it is that the yeast
eats considering that the FG is so low on the Belgian beers. Rarely
much above 1.010.

What would the usual S.G. after adding the priming sugar?

I didn't measure it in a long time but when I did about 45 batches ago
it didn't move the hydrometer even a notch (which is 0.002 on mine).
Which isn't a surprise because you'd need a whole pound of sugar to
raise the gravity by not even 0.010.

Anyhow, next time I'll drop the priming sugar to 3oz for 5-gallons.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-08-26 18:48:08 UTC

Post by baloonon
With the British yeasts, I remember that the brewers often do
some non-typical things, such as circulating the yeast during
fermentation and fermenting in open vessels. If I remember right
(I could be misremembering) they also tend not to do bottle
conditioning in the same way as a typical homebrewer.

Bottle conditioning is far too expensive for commercial brewers. Even
mid-size craft brewers have to fight for every cent these days. But the
taste is all worth it.

A fair number still do, and you can even cultivate their yeast from the
dregs of the bottles, if you're really careful. Coniston Bluebird
Bitter is a favorite of mine, but it's pricey. A good number of
Belgians are bottle conditioned, and you'll find US beers that are too.

Post by Joerg
Yesterday we had a Grolsch first, mainly to get
those flip-top bottles which otherwise would cost the same empty. It
used to be one of my favorite house beers while living in the
Netherlands but now that I brew again it tastes bland in comparison to
homebrew.

Post by baloonon
At any rate, it may be worth doing more research on the yeast you
used and whether there's a need to intervene to keep the
fermentation going past the point where it would usually stop in
order to make sure all of the sugars are chewed up and the yeast
is truly done, and it may also be worth looking into cold crashing
and fining to cut down on the amount of
suspended yeast.

I do fining with moss already but the cold crash is a good idea.

The thing is that fining with moss won't help with yeast -- for yeast
you need to add it after fermentation is done. I seem to recall you
want to avoid gelatin -- Bentonite is one non-animal product alternative
that has been used forever especially with wine, and Biofine Clear is a
newer non-animal product.

I think Bentonite is cheaper per dose, but at the dosage in this
example, Biofine Clear is also really cheap. I think it's maybe 20 or
30 cents or so per five gallons when used at the described
concentration.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/23/the-gelatin-effect-pt-5-gelatin-vs-
biofine-clear-exbeeriment-results/

Post by baloonon
Or, of course, it could just have been a one-time freak occurance,
such as happens in this hobby, and won't ever happen again.

I sure hope so. The one parameter that was different versus last time
was that the temps down there were between 70F and 80F while it was
65F to 75F during the prior batch during bottle carbonation. Not much
of a difference but who knows. When opening the hiss, the head
development and the head retention were about the same.

With winter in a few months, it also becomes easier for me to give
bottles a good chill after carbing is done, and that definitely helps
prevent bottle bombs.

Joerg

2017-08-26 19:28:01 UTC

Post by baloonon
With the British yeasts, I remember that the brewers often do
some non-typical things, such as circulating the yeast during
fermentation and fermenting in open vessels. If I remember right
(I could be misremembering) they also tend not to do bottle
conditioning in the same way as a typical homebrewer.

Bottle conditioning is far too expensive for commercial brewers. Even
mid-size craft brewers have to fight for every cent these days. But the
taste is all worth it.

Yes, there are such beers but those are high-class high-Dollar affairs.
I think even Sierra Nevada had yeast left in the bottles for the first
years but that's mostly over now.

Post by baloonon
At any rate, it may be worth doing more research on the yeast you
used and whether there's a need to intervene to keep the
fermentation going past the point where it would usually stop in
order to make sure all of the sugars are chewed up and the yeast
is truly done, and it may also be worth looking into cold crashing
and fining to cut down on the amount of
suspended yeast.

I do fining with moss already but the cold crash is a good idea.

The thing is that fining with moss won't help with yeast -- for yeast
you need to add it after fermentation is done. I seem to recall you
want to avoid gelatin ...

Not for us but we have two friends who are vegetarians.

Post by baloonon
... -- Bentonite is one non-animal product alternative
that has been used forever especially with wine, and Biofine Clear is a
newer non-animal product.
I think Bentonite is cheaper per dose, but at the dosage in this
example, Biofine Clear is also really cheap. I think it's maybe 20 or
30 cents or so per five gallons when used at the described
concentration.
http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/23/the-gelatin-effect-pt-5-gelatin-vs-
biofine-clear-exbeeriment-results/

Thanks, I didn't know that. My regular supply place has Bentonite but
the description says it's for wine making and they says it's for prior
to fermentation:

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bentonite

The also have Biofine but it's pricier:

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/biofine-clear

Are Bentonite and Biofine active the same then? Anything with bio or eco
in the name is either expensive or you get only a thimble full at a time.

Post by baloonon
Or, of course, it could just have been a one-time freak occurance,
such as happens in this hobby, and won't ever happen again.

I sure hope so. The one parameter that was different versus last time
was that the temps down there were between 70F and 80F while it was
65F to 75F during the prior batch during bottle carbonation. Not much
of a difference but who knows. When opening the hiss, the head
development and the head retention were about the same.

With winter in a few months, it also becomes easier for me to give
bottles a good chill after carbing is done, and that definitely helps
prevent bottle bombs.

The hot summers out here are the main reason why I got a used wine
cooler and remodeled it into a dual fermenting chamber. It can hold two
primaries and three secondaries. Cold crashing is now just a matter of
pushing buttons but it'll drop all the beers in temperature. The top
ones (in the primary chamber) remain about 4F higher. I also made a
heater module for it which I needed December through February because
the fermenting happens downstairs where it's not always heated.

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

That was one of the best investments for brewing I ever made and now I
am season-independent. $100 and about 5h of work. Before that I used an
old 1956 Bosch fridge with an external controller but that can hold only
one beer. Some day I might use that again for a Bock which needs to rest
at very low temperatures for a long time.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-09-03 16:30:11 UTC

Post by Joerg
I do fining with moss already but the cold crash is a good idea.

The thing is that fining with moss won't help with yeast -- for yeast
you need to add it after fermentation is done. I seem to recall you
want to avoid gelatin ...

Not for us but we have two friends who are vegetarians.

Post by baloonon
... -- Bentonite is one non-animal product alternative
that has been used forever especially with wine, and Biofine Clear is
a newer non-animal product.
I think Bentonite is cheaper per dose, but at the dosage in this
example, Biofine Clear is also really cheap. I think it's maybe
20 or 30 cents or so per five gallons when used at the described
concentration.
http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/23/the-gelatin-effect-pt-5-gelatin-vs-
biofine-clear-exbeeriment-results/

Thanks, I didn't know that. My regular supply place has Bentonite but
the description says it's for wine making and they says it's for prior
https://www.midwestsupplies.com/bentonite
https://www.midwestsupplies.com/biofine-clear
Are Bentonite and Biofine active the same then? Anything with bio
or eco in the name is either expensive or you get only a thimble full
at a time.

They're different -- Bentonite is some kind of refined clay. It sounds
like it's a bit trickier to use, although winemakers use it all the
time. Biofine Clear (not the same as Biofine) is a solution of silicic
acid and sounds a little more straightforward to use. I haven't used
either, but I think the guy who did the brulosophy.com experiment is
pretty trustworthy so I would bet his test of Biofine Clear is
believable.

He used 1/4 teaspoon for 2.5 gallons, which comes out to 1/2 teaspoon
for five gallons. That Midwest link sells 1 ounce (2 tablespoons) for
$2.99, so that comes out to 12 doses for $2.99. That's about 25 cents
per dose. Not every beer needs it -- a lot of yeasts are good at
floccing without help or do fine with just cold crashing. So I would
guess the small investment would last a while.

Post by baloonon
With winter in a few months, it also becomes easier for me to give
bottles a good chill after carbing is done, and that definitely helps
prevent bottle bombs.

If you want extra cooling for one fermenter, I wouldn't be surprised if
you could squeeze in some kind of deal with ice packs and an insulated
wrap around whatever is in secondary, and that would leave the primaries
at the higher temp. For a lot of beers, you don't need more than a few
days of cold crashing after primary is done and then you can bottle.

Joerg

2017-09-04 17:51:33 UTC

[...]

Post by baloonon
... -- Bentonite is one non-animal product alternative
that has been used forever especially with wine, and Biofine Clear is
a newer non-animal product.
I think Bentonite is cheaper per dose, but at the dosage in this
example, Biofine Clear is also really cheap. I think it's maybe
20 or 30 cents or so per five gallons when used at the described
concentration.
http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/23/the-gelatin-effect-pt-5-gelatin-vs-
biofine-clear-exbeeriment-results/

They're different -- Bentonite is some kind of refined clay. It sounds
like it's a bit trickier to use, although winemakers use it all the
time. Biofine Clear (not the same as Biofine) is a solution of silicic
acid and sounds a little more straightforward to use. I haven't used
either, but I think the guy who did the brulosophy.com experiment is
pretty trustworthy so I would bet his test of Biofine Clear is
believable.
He used 1/4 teaspoon for 2.5 gallons, which comes out to 1/2 teaspoon
for five gallons. That Midwest link sells 1 ounce (2 tablespoons) for
$2.99, so that comes out to 12 doses for $2.99. That's about 25 cents
per dose. Not every beer needs it -- a lot of yeasts are good at
floccing without help or do fine with just cold crashing. So I would
guess the small investment would last a while.

That is indeed a small price to pay. Somehow I thought you need half the
vial per 5-gallon batch but it looks like not. Got to tack that onto the
next order. Unfortunately Midwest didn't have a free ship deal over the
holiday weekend this year so I'll have to wait for the next order of the
usual 5-10 beer kits.

Post by baloonon
With winter in a few months, it also becomes easier for me to give
bottles a good chill after carbing is done, and that definitely helps
prevent bottle bombs.

It's even easier here. I have an old Bosch fridge next to the
fermentation cooler. Currently all the Belgian Tripel and Saison bottles
are in there to prevent more kaboom but some day they will have been
consumed or temps will drop. Of course, once the yeast is at the bottom
I still have to get the secondaries out to the bottling table. Due to my
not so great lower back I have to do that with a little "hand truck" and
it goes over rough concrete and two steps, so it'll shake. I usually
cart them outside the evening before so things have time to settle back out.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-09-04 18:38:16 UTC

Post by Joerg
That is indeed a small price to pay. Somehow I thought you need half
the vial per 5-gallon batch but it looks like not. Got to tack that
onto the next order. Unfortunately Midwest didn't have a free ship
deal over the holiday weekend this year so I'll have to wait for the
next order of the usual 5-10 beer kits.

Fining is often not necessary, so it should last for a long time. If
you have a small bottle and big beer that you're letting sit in the
fermenter for a long while, you can often pull off a small sample ahead
of time and bottle it to give an early indication if the whole batch
needs fining. Obviously that's not an option on something you want to
bottle shortly after fermentation is done.

Post by Joerg
It's even easier here. I have an old Bosch fridge next to the
fermentation cooler. Currently all the Belgian Tripel and Saison
bottles are in there to prevent more kaboom but some day they will
have been consumed or temps will drop. Of course, once the yeast is at
the bottom I still have to get the secondaries out to the bottling
table. Due to my not so great lower back I have to do that with a
little "hand truck" and it goes over rough concrete and two steps, so
it'll shake. I usually cart them outside the evening before so things
have time to settle back out.

Time for one of these....

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-
60732.html

Ecnerwal

2017-09-18 00:08:26 UTC

Post by Joerg
Due to my not so great lower back I have to do that with a
little "hand truck" and it goes over rough concrete and two steps, so
it'll shake. I usually cart them outside the evening before so things
have time to settle back out.

Time for one of these....
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-
60732.html

A pump is a heck of a lot simpler, and about as easy on a back as can
be. I'm personally fond of peristaltic (tubing) pumps as they are easy
to clean, and no actual pump parts touch the product. Jeorg has his
tight wallet fighting with his bad back, but if he's going to pry the
wallet, a truck crane is not the best use of the cash, IMHO.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Joerg

2017-09-18 14:33:18 UTC

Post by Ecnerwal

Time for one of these....
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-
60732.html

Neither is a pump. The fermentation chamber (a modified large wine
cooler) is in a small basement room and bottling in summer happens
outdoors at a location that is more than 50ft from there. In winter it
happens in an unused shower that is far away as well. Both would require
laying the hose across carpet upon which SWMBO would frown. Sanitizing
50+ feet of hose with StarSan and later drying that doesn't sound like
fun either.

I might build myself some contraption that goes on the hand truck and
provides a cushioned ride for this particular load. For now I just cart
the secondries out later at night before bottling day so they have a
chance to settle.

Anyhow, the Biofine should arrive tomorrow inside a really heavy box,
along with ingredients for another eight beers. An Irish Red and an
Autumn Amber Ale are going to be transferred to secondary end of this week.

The instructions say to add it a day or two before bottling. Is that
critical or can I just add it at the beginning of secondary (which will
take 10-30 days to bottling depending on the beer)?

http://www.northernbrewer.com/biofine-clear-1-oz

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Bob F

2017-09-18 15:15:30 UTC

Time for one of these....
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-
60732.html

Neither is a pump. The fermentation chamber (a modified large wine
cooler) is in a small basement room and bottling in summer happens
outdoors at a location that is more than 50ft from there. In winter it
happens in an unused shower that is far away as well. Both would require
laying the hose across carpet upon which SWMBO would frown. Sanitizing
50+ feet of hose with StarSan and later drying that doesn't sound like
fun either.
I might build myself some contraption that goes on the hand truck and
provides a cushioned ride for this particular load. For now I just cart
the secondries out later at night before bottling day so they have a
chance to settle.
Anyhow, the Biofine should arrive tomorrow inside a really heavy box,
along with ingredients for another eight beers. An Irish Red and an
Autumn Amber Ale are going to be transferred to secondary end of this week.
The instructions say to add it a day or two before bottling. Is that
critical or can I just add it at the beginning of secondary (which will
take 10-30 days to bottling depending on the beer)?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/biofine-clear-1-oz
I have some 6.5 gallon carboys that fit perfectly into standard old milk

crates, making them much safer for handling. The crates do work, but
more loosely, for 5 gallon carboys.

Joerg

2017-09-18 16:02:59 UTC

Time for one of these....
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-
60732.html

Neither is a pump. The fermentation chamber (a modified large wine
cooler) is in a small basement room and bottling in summer happens
outdoors at a location that is more than 50ft from there. In winter it
happens in an unused shower that is far away as well. Both would
require laying the hose across carpet upon which SWMBO would frown.
Sanitizing 50+ feet of hose with StarSan and later drying that doesn't
sound like fun either.
I might build myself some contraption that goes on the hand truck and
provides a cushioned ride for this particular load. For now I just
cart the secondries out later at night before bottling day so they
have a chance to settle.
Anyhow, the Biofine should arrive tomorrow inside a really heavy box,
along with ingredients for another eight beers. An Irish Red and an
Autumn Amber Ale are going to be transferred to secondary end of this week.
The instructions say to add it a day or two before bottling. Is that
critical or can I just add it at the beginning of secondary (which
will take 10-30 days to bottling depending on the beer)?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/biofine-clear-1-oz
I have some 6.5 gallon carboys that fit perfectly into standard old milk

crates, making them much safer for handling. The crates do work, but
more loosely, for 5 gallon carboys.

I could make them a bed in those. The 5-gallon plastic jugs are ok on
the hand truck, it's just that they need some cushioning. The beer in
there will probably still slosh around because there are four steps in
the path.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Dan Logcher

2017-09-19 14:28:32 UTC

Post by Ecnerwal

Time for one of these....
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-
60732.html

Neither is a pump. The fermentation chamber (a modified large wine cooler) is in a small basement
room and bottling in summer happens outdoors at a location that is more than 50ft from there. In
winter it happens in an unused shower that is far away as well. Both would require laying the hose
across carpet upon which SWMBO would frown. Sanitizing 50+ feet of hose with StarSan and later
drying that doesn't sound like fun either.
I might build myself some contraption that goes on the hand truck and provides a cushioned ride
for this particular load. For now I just cart the secondries out later at night before bottling
day so they have a chance to settle.
Anyhow, the Biofine should arrive tomorrow inside a really heavy box, along with ingredients for
another eight beers. An Irish Red and an Autumn Amber Ale are going to be transferred to secondary
end of this week.
The instructions say to add it a day or two before bottling. Is that critical or can I just add it
at the beginning of secondary (which will take 10-30 days to bottling depending on the beer)?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/biofine-clear-1-oz
I have some 6.5 gallon carboys that fit perfectly into standard old milk

crates, making them much safer for handling. The crates do work, but more loosely, for 5 gallon
carboys.

I use the milk crates too. But since I switched to Fast Ferment, I rarely use a carboy anymore.
These fermentors are primary and secondary, so I don't rack to carboys now. I do have a carboy of
high octane cider I've been aging for 5 years..

--
Dan

baloonon

2017-09-19 01:24:48 UTC

Post by Joerg
Due to my not so great lower back I have to do that with a
little "hand truck" and it goes over rough concrete and two steps,
so it'll shake. I usually cart them outside the evening before so
things have time to settle back out.

Time for one of these....
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-
60732.html

A pump is a heck of a lot simpler, and about as easy on a back as can
be. I'm personally fond of peristaltic (tubing) pumps as they are
easy to clean, and no actual pump parts touch the product. Jeorg has
his tight wallet fighting with his bad back, but if he's going to pry
the wallet, a truck crane is not the best use of the cash, IMHO.

You're right, I was just being tongue in cheek with the 12 ton capacity
crane, at least until the industrial sized brewery gets installed.

Personally I think the best solution is smaller fermenters that are easy to
stack.

Post by Joerg
Anyhow, the Biofine should arrive tomorrow inside a really heavy box,
along with ingredients for another eight beers. An Irish Red and an
Autumn Amber Ale are going to be transferred to secondary end of this week.
The instructions say to add it a day or two before bottling. Is that
critical or can I just add it at the beginning of secondary (which
will take 10-30 days to bottling depending on the beer)?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/biofine-clear-1-oz

It's said that finings usually shouldn't be added too much ahead of
bottling or you run the risk of stripping out flavor and/or aroma. If you
usually take a sample before bottling anyways, which is usually a good
idea, you may as well do that a couple of days early so you can get a sense
whether fining might be a good idea. A lot of times, it's not needed. Or
be really clever and split the batch, fine half and leave the other
unfined, and see if it makes a difference.

2017-09-21 12:46:02 UTC

Post by Joerg
It was Fermentis BE-256 dry yeast. Primary fermentation is very violent
with this Belgian-style yeast and I need a 3/4" blow-off pipe. 1/2"
wasn't enough. However, the attenuation was very good and after primary
it rested another four weeks in secondary where for more than the three
last weeks there was no remaining air lock activity at all. Primary is
10 days so it even rests there a bit at the end (air lock activity
peters out after 5-6 days).

I once had an extremely violent fermentation of a high gravity stout
with a Belgian top cropping yeast and the best I could figure out was
that most of it must have crawled out the blow off tube as any visible
signs of fermentation stopped abruptly about a day later. Ended up
throwing in a pack of S-04 to finish the job which took another week in
primary. You mention attenuation was very good - so I dunno.
rb

Joerg

2017-09-22 19:43:13 UTC

Post by rb

Some of it crawls out that way as well here. A day into fermentation the
StarSan solution in the blow-off container turns an eerie green-yellow.
It still attenuates fine. Since it has to stay in primary for around 10
days this makes for a very tough cleaning job because all that brownish
kraeusen residue is thoroughly caked in by then. But ... a Belgian
Tripel is so worth it.

I just bottled a Copper Ale and the cap-holder magnet of my Ferrari
Agata capper went AWOL. Durn! Nowhere to be found, hopefully it's not in
one of the bottles. Why can't they make stuff sturdy anymore these days?
Why is everyting plastic?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-09-23 01:04:43 UTC

Post by Joerg
I just bottled a Copper Ale and the cap-holder magnet of my Ferrari
Agata capper went AWOL. Durn! Nowhere to be found, hopefully it's not in
one of the bottles. Why can't they make stuff sturdy anymore these days?
Why is everyting plastic?

You can find some vintage cast iron ones on ebay for around $20 to $30,
sometimes as low as $10. From what I can tell from looking at comments
online, you sometimes pay a lot for shipping, but not always.

If you get a good one, they'll last forever, but it sounds like it's a roll
of the dice since some of them have a bent part that keeps them from
sealing quite right.

If you troll around vintage stores and antique junk stores you can
sometimes find them for cheap, and I assume you could usually ask nicely if
the salesperson would put one on hold until you could come back with a
bottle and cap to test it. I'd love to have a vintage one in good working
order to go with my cast iron grain grinder.

Joerg

2017-09-23 18:49:34 UTC

Sub-par sealing is what I had with the wing capper. I do not want that
to happen again, making beer is just too much work to see part of a
batch going flat in the bottles.

Post by baloonon
If you troll around vintage stores and antique junk stores you can
sometimes find them for cheap, and I assume you could usually ask nicely if
the salesperson would put one on hold until you could come back with a
bottle and cap to test it. I'd love to have a vintage one in good working
order to go with my cast iron grain grinder.

I was looking for a while and my wife still is. One of the brewpubs
along my mountain biking routes has one (and no, they won't part with
it) that looks like it dates back to the Gold Rush.

I just don't understand how a simple design like a capper can be screwed
up. Among other deficiencies of the Ferrari capper are insufficient
range where you need shims for some bottles and the fact that the
plastic dome of the piston is of such poor quality that it has already
worn down noticeably where the metal rod hits.

My bicycling buddy is a tool-and-die maker. I'll talk to him about
whether some stuff can be replaced by our own design. I did that on my
mountain bike and it made a huge difference in trail handling.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-09-24 00:32:59 UTC

Post by baloonon
If you troll around vintage stores and antique junk stores you can
sometimes find them for cheap, and I assume you could usually ask
nicely if the salesperson would put one on hold until you could come
back with a bottle and cap to test it. I'd love to have a vintage one
in good working order to go with my cast iron grain grinder.

I was looking for a while and my wife still is. One of the brewpubs
along my mountain biking routes has one (and no, they won't part with
it) that looks like it dates back to the Gold Rush.

I'm curious who used them back in the day. I'm sure the really old ones
were popular back in Prohibition days when there was a lot of illegal
home brewing. Maybe back when home canning was popular, people preserved
all kinds of things in bottles? Maybe soda fountains would bottle made
to order sodas?

Post by Joerg
I just don't understand how a simple design like a capper can be
screwed up. Among other deficiencies of the Ferrari capper are
insufficient range where you need shims for some bottles and the fact
that the plastic dome of the piston is of such poor quality that it
has already worn down noticeably where the metal rod hits.

My cheapo mostly plastic wing capper has held up remarkably well. I
guess the manufacturing is a hit and miss affair, with a high degree of
failure - I know many people find they break or go bad almost
immediately. For whatever reason I get a misaligned or otherwise failed
cap only 1 in 100 attempts, or even fewer than that.

Post by Joerg
My bicycling buddy is a tool-and-die maker. I'll talk to him about
whether some stuff can be replaced by our own design. I did that on my
mountain bike and it made a huge difference in trail handling.

Maybe someday 3D printing will be an option.

Joerg

2017-09-24 16:17:00 UTC

Post by baloonon
If you troll around vintage stores and antique junk stores you can
sometimes find them for cheap, and I assume you could usually ask
nicely if the salesperson would put one on hold until you could come
back with a bottle and cap to test it. I'd love to have a vintage one
in good working order to go with my cast iron grain grinder.

I was looking for a while and my wife still is. One of the brewpubs
along my mountain biking routes has one (and no, they won't part with
it) that looks like it dates back to the Gold Rush.

Most bottles from that vintage I saw are flip-tops. Others had a weird top:

http://www.bottlebooks.com/beertime/understanding%20beer%20bottles.htm

Next time I am up there I'll ask the owner of the brewery. He knows a
lot about he local history back to his great-great-grandpa's time.

I had too many carb-loss cases with the wing capper. So far none with
the Ferrari but its quality seems sub-par to me.

Maybe someday 3D printing will be an option.

Not really because this needs needs to be stainless or some other very
hard and then nickel-plated metal.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

baloonon

2017-09-24 17:12:02 UTC

Post by baloonon
If you troll around vintage stores and antique junk stores you can
sometimes find them for cheap, and I assume you could usually ask
nicely if the salesperson would put one on hold until you could
come back with a bottle and cap to test it. I'd love to have a
vintage one in good working order to go with my cast iron grain
grinder.

I was looking for a while and my wife still is. One of the brewpubs
along my mountain biking routes has one (and no, they won't part
with it) that looks like it dates back to the Gold Rush.

I'm curious who used them back in the day. I'm sure the really old
ones were popular back in Prohibition days when there was a lot of
illegal home brewing. Maybe back when home canning was popular,
people preserved all kinds of things in bottles? Maybe soda fountains
would bottle made to order sodas?

http://www.bottlebooks.com/beertime/understanding%20beer%20bottles.htm
Next time I am up there I'll ask the owner of the brewery. He knows a
lot about he local history back to his great-great-grandpa's time.

I seem to recall that there were still a lot of corked bottles 80-100
years ago along with the more "modern" caps. For whatever reason, there
sure seem to be a lot of vintage cappers around.