Bit of A Yeast Cake Quandry

[D Ash]

Howdy, y'allQ!

A question about using primary fermenter yeast cake for new brew. I mean,
without removing/washing from fermenter.

On hand in primaries, I have a Brit-style strong ale that will push 7.8%
ABV on a White Labs British Dry Ale yeast (WPL007) just about finished
(finally!). In the other primary is an American style pale ale just
finishing a rollicking ferment with Imperial Pub #A09, a serious
floculator, if there ever was one!

Now, here's the conundrum: I'm setting up to rack both of those to 2ndaries
AND brew, same day. The brew will be a Brit-style pale ale. Which yeast
cake would be better for a weaker new brew? This will happen Saturday, so
there's a bit of time to strategize. Anyone have any thoughts? Please
'pitch' in. {;-)

[baloonon]

Post by D Ash
Howdy, y'allQ!
A question about using primary fermenter yeast cake for new brew. I
mean, without removing/washing from fermenter.
On hand in primaries, I have a Brit-style strong ale that will push
7.8% ABV on a White Labs British Dry Ale yeast (WPL007) just about
finished (finally!). In the other primary is an American style pale
ale just finishing a rollicking ferment with Imperial Pub #A09, a
serious floculator, if there ever was one!
Now, here's the conundrum: I'm setting up to rack both of those to
2ndaries AND brew, same day. The brew will be a Brit-style pale ale.
Which yeast cake would be better for a weaker new brew? This will
happen Saturday, so there's a bit of time to strategize. Anyone have
any thoughts? Please 'pitch' in. {;-)

I seem to recall 007 is very clean, and my personal taste in English
beers goes toward the more strong-flavored yeasts. But clean certainly
isn't bad by any means as far as that family of beers.

I've never used A09. I've read that it's the same as/similar to 1968.
I really like Fullers beers, but I've never had good success with 1968.
I only bottle, and I've read that it tends to work a lot better with
kegging than bottles. I've had the same result as a lot of people I've
read about -- great taste for a little while, but then some kind of
additional fermentation happens in the bottle with gushers and a thin
taste after a couple of weeks. I've read that it's possible to get
better results but it takes a pretty narrow band of fermenting
temperatures to do it, and I've gone on to other yeasts instead.

You may have better luck, or maybe A09 works differently than 1968.

[D Ash]

Post by baloonon

Post by D Ash
Howdy, y'allQ!
A question about using primary fermenter yeast cake for new brew. I
mean, without removing/washing from fermenter.
On hand in primaries, I have a Brit-style strong ale that will push
7.8% ABV on a White Labs British Dry Ale yeast (WPL007) just about
finished (finally!). In the other primary is an American style pale
ale just finishing a rollicking ferment with Imperial Pub #A09, a
serious floculator, if there ever was one!
Now, here's the conundrum: I'm setting up to rack both of those to
2ndaries AND brew, same day. The brew will be a Brit-style pale ale.
Which yeast cake would be better for a weaker new brew? This will
happen Saturday, so there's a bit of time to strategize. Anyone have
any thoughts? Please 'pitch' in. {;-)

I seem to recall 007 is very clean, and my personal taste in English
beers goes toward the more strong-flavored yeasts. But clean

certainly

Post by baloonon
isn't bad by any means as far as that family of beers.
I've never used A09. I've read that it's the same as/similar to 1968.
I really like Fullers beers, but I've never had good success with 1968.
I only bottle, and I've read that it tends to work a lot better with
kegging than bottles. I've had the same result as a lot of people I've
read about -- great taste for a little while, but then some kind of
additional fermentation happens in the bottle with gushers and a thin
taste after a couple of weeks. I've read that it's possible to get
better results but it takes a pretty narrow band of fermenting
temperatures to do it, and I've gone on to other yeasts instead.
You may have better luck, or maybe A09 works differently than 1968.

I'm still vascillating-- did purchase a can of liquid for backup. Not
comfortable yet with all the necessaries of dealing with yeast other
than dry with starters and pouches/cans of liquid. I will get there, and
all knowledge and advice much appreciated! Thank you.

[Joerg]

Post by D Ash
Howdy, y'allQ!
A question about using primary fermenter yeast cake for new brew. I mean,
without removing/washing from fermenter.
On hand in primaries, I have a Brit-style strong ale that will push 7.8%
ABV on a White Labs British Dry Ale yeast (WPL007) just about finished
(finally!). In the other primary is an American style pale ale just
finishing a rollicking ferment with Imperial Pub #A09, a serious
floculator, if there ever was one!
Now, here's the conundrum: I'm setting up to rack both of those to 2ndaries
AND brew, same day. The brew will be a Brit-style pale ale. Which yeast
cake would be better for a weaker new brew? This will happen Saturday, so
there's a bit of time to strategize. Anyone have any thoughts? Please
'pitch' in. {;-)

Can't comment regarding the yeasts and I am certainly no expert. When I
re-use I don't use the whole cake as that could result in overpitching
and also transfer unwanted flavors. I thin the yeast cake, swish, fill
into sanitized jars. Usually takes two 7oz jars per 5-gallon batch of
beer. Then I pour the liquid part from one jar into the freshly brewed
wort in the fermenter but not the trub in the bottom.

How much flavor the trub contains became apparent since we started
making trub bread. You can instantly taste whether the trub for the
bread came from a Koelsch, IPA, Pale Ale, Stout or Amber. Undoubtedly
much less will penetrate a brew on top of an undisturbed yeast cake but
a little might get through.

[D Ash]

Post by Joerg

Post by D Ash
Howdy, y'allQ!
A question about using primary fermenter yeast cake for new brew. I
mean, without removing/washing from fermenter.
On hand in primaries, I have a Brit-style strong ale that will push
7.8% ABV on a White Labs British Dry Ale yeast (WPL007) just about
finished (finally!). In the other primary is an American style pale
ale just finishing a rollicking ferment with Imperial Pub #A09, a
serious floculator, if there ever was one!
Now, here's the conundrum: I'm setting up to rack both of those to
2ndaries AND brew, same day. The brew will be a Brit-style pale ale.
Which yeast cake would be better for a weaker new brew? This will
happen Saturday, so there's a bit of time to strategize. Anyone have
any thoughts? Please 'pitch' in. {;-)

Can't comment regarding the yeasts and I am certainly no expert. When
I re-use I don't use the whole cake as that could result in
overpitching and also transfer unwanted flavors. I thin the yeast
cake, swish, fill into sanitized jars. Usually takes two 7oz jars per
5-gallon batch of beer. Then I pour the liquid part from one jar into
the freshly brewed wort in the fermenter but not the trub in the
bottom.
How much flavor the trub contains became apparent since we started
making trub bread. You can instantly taste whether the trub for the
bread came from a Koelsch, IPA, Pale Ale, Stout or Amber. Undoubtedly
much less will penetrate a brew on top of an undisturbed yeast cake
but a little might get through.

I'm still vascillating-- did purchase a can of liquid for backup. Not
comfortable yet with all the necessaries of dealing with yeast other
than dry with starters and pouches/cans of liquid. I will get there, and
all knowledge and advice much appreciated! Thank you.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
Can't comment regarding the yeasts and I am certainly no expert. When
I re-use I don't use the whole cake as that could result in
overpitching and also transfer unwanted flavors. I thin the yeast
cake, swish, fill into sanitized jars. Usually takes two 7oz jars per
5-gallon batch of beer. Then I pour the liquid part from one jar into
the freshly brewed wort in the fermenter but not the trub in the
bottom.
How much flavor the trub contains became apparent since we started
making trub bread. You can instantly taste whether the trub for the
bread came from a Koelsch, IPA, Pale Ale, Stout or Amber. Undoubtedly
much less will penetrate a brew on top of an undisturbed yeast cake
but a little might get through.

I wouldn't stress too much about overpitching -- I think that's one of
those things that you really have to go overboard before it becomes an
issue.

Poking around brulosophy.com, it sounds like rinsing trub is generally
more work than is needed too. I'd be cautious if the trub was from a
beer that had been spiced, had fruit or peat malt in it, or was heavily
dry hopped, but in general I don't think flavors come through to the
beer. But as long as sanitation is good, I don't think it hurts beyond
a bit of minimal effort. Still, I think the nice takeaway is that this
is an area where a little laziness generally won't get you into trouble.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Can't comment regarding the yeasts and I am certainly no expert. When
I re-use I don't use the whole cake as that could result in
overpitching and also transfer unwanted flavors. I thin the yeast
cake, swish, fill into sanitized jars. Usually takes two 7oz jars per
5-gallon batch of beer. Then I pour the liquid part from one jar into
the freshly brewed wort in the fermenter but not the trub in the
bottom.
How much flavor the trub contains became apparent since we started
making trub bread. You can instantly taste whether the trub for the
bread came from a Koelsch, IPA, Pale Ale, Stout or Amber. Undoubtedly
much less will penetrate a brew on top of an undisturbed yeast cake
but a little might get through.

I wouldn't stress too much about overpitching -- I think that's one of
those things that you really have to go overboard before it becomes an
issue.
Poking around brulosophy.com, it sounds like rinsing trub is generally
more work than is needed too. I'd be cautious if the trub was from a
beer that had been spiced, had fruit or peat malt in it, or was heavily
dry hopped, but in general I don't think flavors come through to the
beer. But as long as sanitation is good, I don't think it hurts beyond
a bit of minimal effort. Still, I think the nice takeaway is that this
is an area where a little laziness generally won't get you into trouble.

You are probably right about all that. So far I haven't had issues and
neither washed the yeast nor measured the re-pitched amount more than
eyeballing it. Today a Koelsch will go into secondary after the Irish
Red in there is bottled and tomorrow part of the yeast from the Koelsch
will go into a Autumn Amber. Mid-December the Cream Ale will be bottled
and its yeast we get a retirement job in an IPA.

The main reason I don't re-pitch the whole amount is that the trub bread
starter also needs some yeast. By now I am used to having trub bread for
lunch, usually two kinds at a time.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
Today a Koelsch will go into secondary after the Irish
Red in there is bottled and tomorrow part of the yeast from the Koelsch
will go into a Autumn Amber.

Ever had Koelsch in Cologne? I did, a long time ago, and I wonder how well
the home brewed version translates.

Part of the challenge is that I had it in those little glasses while eating
a big chunk of pork on a bone in the open air table surrounded by Germans
happily gnawing away, and that's a tough thing to replicate here at home.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Today a Koelsch will go into secondary after the Irish
Red in there is bottled and tomorrow part of the yeast from the Koelsch
will go into a Autumn Amber.

Ever had Koelsch in Cologne? I did, a long time ago, and I wonder how well
the home brewed version translates.

On the risk of the Germans sending a destroyer up the Sacramento River:
It tastes better than the stuff in Cologne. We lived about 20 miles from
Cologne and my wife never like Koelsch there. I drank it but it wasn't
my favorite. Then I had the Trailblazer Koelsch here and brought home a
growler:

http://edhbrewing.com/menu.html

My wife said it is better than anything in Cologne. So I got the Koelsch
extract kit from Midwest and it tasted almost the same as their Trailblazer.

Post by baloonon
Part of the challenge is that I had it in those little glasses while eating
a big chunk of pork on a bone in the open air table surrounded by Germans
happily gnawing away, and that's a tough thing to replicate here at home.

Make a big schnitzel with french fries to go with the Koelsch and all is
good :-)

Anyhow, the Koelsch is now on our regular brew list. Tomorrow it'll be
session #14. #15 is going to be an IPA, #16 a Pale Ale and #17 is going
to be a Koelsch again.

Next year I am going to get into some heavier-bodied beers. The kits
should arrive Wednesday. After that I want to start BIAB.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Today a Koelsch will go into secondary after the Irish
Red in there is bottled and tomorrow part of the yeast from the
Koelsch will go into a Autumn Amber.

Ever had Koelsch in Cologne? I did, a long time ago, and I wonder
how well the home brewed version translates.

On the risk of the Germans sending a destroyer up the Sacramento
River: It tastes better than the stuff in Cologne. We lived about 20
miles from Cologne and my wife never like Koelsch there. I drank it
but it wasn't my favorite. Then I had the Trailblazer Koelsch here and
http://edhbrewing.com/menu.html
My wife said it is better than anything in Cologne. So I got the
Koelsch extract kit from Midwest and it tasted almost the same as
their Trailblazer.

Can you spell out what's different? My memory of Kolsch is that it's
very easy-drinking stuff. Is the MW version more strongly hopped or has
a deeper note in the malt? Not that either would be bad things, just
curious about what's different.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Today a Koelsch will go into secondary after the Irish
Red in there is bottled and tomorrow part of the yeast from the
Koelsch will go into a Autumn Amber.

Ever had Koelsch in Cologne? I did, a long time ago, and I wonder
how well the home brewed version translates.

On the risk of the Germans sending a destroyer up the Sacramento
River: It tastes better than the stuff in Cologne. We lived about 20
miles from Cologne and my wife never like Koelsch there. I drank it
but it wasn't my favorite. Then I had the Trailblazer Koelsch here and
http://edhbrewing.com/menu.html
My wife said it is better than anything in Cologne. So I got the
Koelsch extract kit from Midwest and it tasted almost the same as
their Trailblazer.

Can you spell out what's different? My memory of Kolsch is that it's
very easy-drinking stuff. Is the MW version more strongly hopped or has
a deeper note in the malt? Not that either would be bad things, just
curious about what's different.

It's been too long that I was in Cologne. What I remember is that
Koelsch over there tastes kind of thin, "water-like". The Koelsch from
our pub and from Midwest is more cloudy and has a more creamy taste.
Hops and bitterness don't seem to be much different to the Koelsch in
Germany. Where they are the same is in the urge to want back out. As is
said, you only rent beer. With Koelsch the rental period seems to be
quite short but that may also have to do with age :-)

I was born and raised in Germany, also lived there for about 30 years of
my life. Yet I am more of an ale guy, British and US styles. Also a big
fan of Belgian beers, the heavy stuff. From Germany I like many of the
Pilsener beers. IMHO Czech Pilsener is still the best though.