Adding honey to beer, how and when?

[Joerg]

On two upcoming brews I'd like to add honey to two standard recipes. One
is the American Wheat from Midwest and the other their Stout. Both are
extract kits from their "Simply Beer" series. Hoping to spruce up the
Wheat Beer and turn the Stout into some sort of Honey Porter.

This example adds honey at "zero minutes" or end of boil:

https://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/HoneyWeizen.pdf

Will that sterilize the honey well enough? I bought 3lbs of artisan
clover honey from Minnesota (also via Midwest) for this experiment.

For their Honey Porter they recommend 2mins before end of boil and I
assume you'll really have to bring it back to a rolling boil which would
take at least 15 minutes with my two little electric burners:

https://www.midwestsupplies.com/downloads/dl/file/id/867/product/7711/honey_porter_ale_instructions.pdf

Other recipes call for 10mins if honey flavors are to be preserved and
30mins if it's just about raising the alcohol level. I am going for
taste here, not alcohol. Yet others say to sterilize the honey and add
it to primary at high kraeusen, something that is too cumbersome for me
right now and my precision thermometer is currently busted.

All quite confusing.

Added question: With a weak heat source the boil times really stretch if
I add anything such as LME. Does the recommended remaining boil time
start at "slightly wavy boil" or a full rolling boil?

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
Other recipes call for 10mins if honey flavors are to be preserved and
30mins if it's just about raising the alcohol level. I am going for
taste here, not alcohol. Yet others say to sterilize the honey and add
it to primary at high kraeusen, something that is too cumbersome for
me right now and my precision thermometer is currently busted.
All quite confusing.
Added question: With a weak heat source the boil times really stretch
if I add anything such as LME. Does the recommended remaining boil
time start at "slightly wavy boil" or a full rolling boil?

I'd be surprised if there's any value to boiling honey beyond the
benefits of mixing from all of the turbulence.

Honey already has very little in the way of bacteria or yeast, aside
from what might be living on the jar.

This guy is a well respected home brewer and he just added it for a
secondary fermentation in this recipe, no sterilization:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/05/honey-sour-beer-
experiment.html

I think if there's any fear of contamination, and adding to primary is
too cumbersome, then add it to the wort during cooling as it starts
dropping close to 160 F. Just stir well to make sure it's fully mixed.

As far as boiling, you'll read warnings about Pilsner malt needing 90
minute boils to prevent buildup of DMS, but I think that's overkill.
This is one experiment which compared 90 and 30 minute boils and didn't
see a difference based on taste tests and actual lab tests:

< http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/08/update-lab-data-on-pils-malt-boil-
length-exbeeriment/ >

There's a bit of difference when you boil longer as far as a color and
caramel-like tastes, and hops are obviously affected by boil length, but
I seriously doubt you'd notice any difference if you compared a beer
that spent 20 minutes going from 200 to 211 F and then boiled for 40
minutes versus a beer that spent 60 minutes at a full 212 F, all other
things being equal.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
Other recipes call for 10mins if honey flavors are to be preserved and
30mins if it's just about raising the alcohol level. I am going for
taste here, not alcohol. Yet others say to sterilize the honey and add
it to primary at high kraeusen, something that is too cumbersome for
me right now and my precision thermometer is currently busted.
All quite confusing.
Added question: With a weak heat source the boil times really stretch
if I add anything such as LME. Does the recommended remaining boil
time start at "slightly wavy boil" or a full rolling boil?

I'd be surprised if there's any value to boiling honey beyond the
benefits of mixing from all of the turbulence.
Honey already has very little in the way of bacteria or yeast, aside
from what might be living on the jar.
This guy is a well respected home brewer and he just added it for a
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/05/honey-sour-beer-
experiment.html

He is doing sours though. Must be a real expert, I am still many years
away from that level.

Post by baloonon
I think if there's any fear of contamination, and adding to primary is
too cumbersome, then add it to the wort during cooling as it starts
dropping close to 160 F. Just stir well to make sure it's fully mixed.

Good idea. Hopefully the replacement thermometer gets here by then. I am
using a coil chiller which cools wort from a boil to 80F in less than
15mins. So I'll have to have one hand on the water valve for this 160F
trick to work. The chiller would almost have to be my "stirring spoon"
as well.

Post by baloonon
As far as boiling, you'll read warnings about Pilsner malt needing 90
minute boils to prevent buildup of DMS, but I think that's overkill.
This is one experiment which compared 90 and 30 minute boils and didn't
< http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/08/update-lab-data-on-pils-malt-boil-
length-exbeeriment/ >

Sulfides are what some people claim can hardly be tasted but give them a
headache.

Post by baloonon
There's a bit of difference when you boil longer as far as a color and
caramel-like tastes, and hops are obviously affected by boil length, but
I seriously doubt you'd notice any difference if you compared a beer
that spent 20 minutes going from 200 to 211 F and then boiled for 40
minutes versus a beer that spent 60 minutes at a full 212 F, all other
things being equal.

I don't doubt that at all. I was just wondering about all those late
additions. For example, Belgian Tripel has one almost every five minutes
at the end. Sugar, hops, some more LME, other hops, orange peel, and so
on. Tomorrow we'll pull the first bottle of Tripel out of the
carbonation box. Should be interesting. My wife might not like it though.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
I don't doubt that at all. I was just wondering about all those late
additions. For example, Belgian Tripel has one almost every five minutes
at the end. Sugar, hops, some more LME, other hops, orange peel, and so
on. Tomorrow we'll pull the first bottle of Tripel out of the
carbonation box. Should be interesting. My wife might not like it though.

I don't know the recipe but I wouldn't be surprised if it can be
simplified. I think a lot of times people go crazy trying to fine tune
additions when they can all go in at once, or at most twice. For instance,
I can't imagine it really matters whether sugar goes into the pot with 5
minutes to go or with 15 minutes to go.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
I don't doubt that at all. I was just wondering about all those late
additions. For example, Belgian Tripel has one almost every five minutes
at the end. Sugar, hops, some more LME, other hops, orange peel, and so
on. Tomorrow we'll pull the first bottle of Tripel out of the
carbonation box. Should be interesting. My wife might not like it though.

I don't know the recipe but I wouldn't be surprised if it can be
simplified. I think a lot of times people go crazy trying to fine tune
additions when they can all go in at once, or at most twice. For instance,
I can't imagine it really matters whether sugar goes into the pot with 5
minutes to go or with 15 minutes to go.

It's an extract kit from Midwest and I went by the instructions that
came with it. I am not yet at the stage of formulating my onw recipes,
mostly on account of not having a grain mill for the fine grinding
required for BIAB. That is my goal this year, to be able to brew one all
grain and one extract kit during one day. So far it's two extract kits.

For some reason the Belgian Tripel hasn't carbonated yet. It's been
almost 10 day but ... flat ... so I'll give it another week. If still
flat I'll have to move it into the living room because the otehr rooms
to get much above 65F in winter. Not sure if it is the BE-256 yeast.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
For some reason the Belgian Tripel hasn't carbonated yet. It's been
almost 10 day but ... flat ... so I'll give it another week. If still
flat I'll have to move it into the living room because the otehr rooms
to get much above 65F in winter. Not sure if it is the BE-256 yeast.

You can sanitize a measuring cup with boiling water and when it's cool pull
out 8 to 12 ounces and put it in a sanitized jar for easier observation.
Loosen the lid just enough to let the CO2 escape. If nothing happens over
a few days, move the jar to a warmer place and see if that does anything.
It also can't hurt to gently tip the fermenter back and forth a bit to
rouse the yeast a little.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
For some reason the Belgian Tripel hasn't carbonated yet. It's been
almost 10 day but ... flat ... so I'll give it another week. If still
flat I'll have to move it into the living room because the otehr rooms
to get much above 65F in winter. Not sure if it is the BE-256 yeast.

You can sanitize a measuring cup with boiling water and when it's cool pull
out 8 to 12 ounces and put it in a sanitized jar for easier observation.
Loosen the lid just enough to let the CO2 escape. If nothing happens over
a few days, move the jar to a warmer place and see if that does anything.

We moved all the bottles close to the wood stove now, to see what
happens. If still nothing in another week I'll probably have to mix a
yeast-sugar solution, uncap all bottles and inject a measured dose into
each from a sanitized syringe, then re-cap them. I've had a sluggish
carbonation on a Stout once but never with this much delay. The Tripel
is an 8% ale though and it is only 66F in the back of the house where
the carbonating bottles are mostly stored, maybe that is the reason?

Post by baloonon
It also can't hurt to gently tip the fermenter back and forth a bit to
rouse the yeast a little.

It's in bottles where it is supposed to carbonate but somehow doesn't
want to.

I did have a stall in a fermenter last week. Brewed a Cream Ale in the
morning of Feb-1 and an Autumn Amber in the afternoon. Both with US-05
3rd generation harvested from the trub of a Koelsch (that yeast did an
Irish Red before). They promptly started bubbling within 10h. The Autumn
Amber stalled out the next day while the Cream Ale kept going happily at
the regular air lock rate. So I shook the Autumn Amber fermenter bucket
front to back and left to right. That got it going again. Temps on the
outside of the fermenter measured 68-69F so that couldn't be the reason.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
It's in bottles where it is supposed to carbonate but somehow doesn't
want to.

Ah, didn't pick up that it was already bottled. In that case, it sounds
like you're doing all you can. All I can add is before you do a drastic
intervention try gently swirling them once or twice a day to see if any
yeast on the bottom can get mixed back in. That plus time and warmth may
well be all it takes.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
It's in bottles where it is supposed to carbonate but somehow doesn't
want to.

Ah, didn't pick up that it was already bottled. In that case, it sounds
like you're doing all you can. All I can add is before you do a drastic
intervention try gently swirling them once or twice a day to see if any
yeast on the bottom can get mixed back in. That plus time and warmth may
well be all it takes.

Ok, did another swirl yesterday adn left them next to the wood stove.
I'll try one again in a couple of days.

[Dan Logcher]

On two upcoming brews I'd like to add honey to two standard recipes. One is the American Wheat from
Midwest and the other their Stout. Both are extract kits from their "Simply Beer" series. Hoping to
spruce up the Wheat Beer and turn the Stout into some sort of Honey Porter.
https://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/HoneyWeizen.pdf
Will that sterilize the honey well enough? I bought 3lbs of artisan clover honey from Minnesota
(also via Midwest) for this experiment.

Honey is antibacterial, so no need to sterilize or pasteurize.
I add in 2lbs at flame out and stir well.

[Joerg]

Post by Dan Logcher

Post by Joerg
On two upcoming brews I'd like to add honey to two standard recipes.
One is the American Wheat from
Midwest and the other their Stout. Both are extract kits from their
"Simply Beer" series. Hoping to
spruce up the Wheat Beer and turn the Stout into some sort of Honey Porter.
https://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/HoneyWeizen.pdf
Will that sterilize the honey well enough? I bought 3lbs of artisan
clover honey from Minnesota
(also via Midwest) for this experiment.

Honey is antibacterial, so no need to sterilize or pasteurize.
I add in 2lbs at flame out and stir well.

Ok then, thanks, I think I'll add it some time between end of boil and
160F, as a compromise between your and Baloonon's method :-)

I'll also use fresh dry yeast for these first two beers (on brew day I
usually brew two sequentially). For many other beers I use 2nd or 3rd
generation Safale US-05 from trub.

During our dog walks I also found a bee keeper so I could buy the next
honey from him. He also makes wine and is interested in beer brewing.

[baloonon]

Post by Joerg
During our dog walks I also found a bee keeper so I could buy the next
honey from him. He also makes wine and is interested in beer brewing.

I wish I had a bigger yard so I could keep bees. See if you can find out
what flowers the bees have been using. It may be just a mix of everything
local, but it's worth making a note if it's all orange blossoms or all
alfalfa or whatever. It may be interesting to see whether a specific
flavor or aroma comes through, and if there's any variation if you do a
repeat batch with a different type of honey.

[Joerg]

Post by baloonon

Post by Joerg
During our dog walks I also found a bee keeper so I could buy the next
honey from him. He also makes wine and is interested in beer brewing.

I wish I had a bigger yard so I could keep bees. See if you can find out
what flowers the bees have been using. It may be just a mix of everything
local, but it's worth making a note if it's all orange blossoms or all
alfalfa or whatever. It may be interesting to see whether a specific
flavor or aroma comes through, and if there's any variation if you do a
repeat batch with a different type of honey.

I'll have to ask him. The honey I have now is clover but his bees are
probably buzzing all over the wilderness out here. Bee keepers sometimes
move their bees and then it can be all different next time. Or maybe
some of their bee colonies are "on duty" as a farm to pollinate whatever
they've got planted.

[Bob F]

Post by Joerg
On two upcoming brews I'd like to add honey to two standard recipes. One
is the American Wheat from Midwest and the other their Stout. Both are
extract kits from their "Simply Beer" series. Hoping to spruce up the
Wheat Beer and turn the Stout into some sort of Honey Porter.
https://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/HoneyWeizen.pdf
Will that sterilize the honey well enough? I bought 3lbs of artisan
clover honey from Minnesota (also via Midwest) for this experiment.
For their Honey Porter they recommend 2mins before end of boil and I
assume you'll really have to bring it back to a rolling boil which would
https://www.midwestsupplies.com/downloads/dl/file/id/867/product/7711/honey_porter_ale_instructions.pdf
Other recipes call for 10mins if honey flavors are to be preserved and
30mins if it's just about raising the alcohol level. I am going for
taste here, not alcohol. Yet others say to sterilize the honey and add
it to primary at high kraeusen, something that is too cumbersome for me
right now and my precision thermometer is currently busted.
All quite confusing.
Added question: With a weak heat source the boil times really stretch if
I add anything such as LME. Does the recommended remaining boil time
start at "slightly wavy boil" or a full rolling boil?

I add honey after just warming it enough to flow out of the bottle, to
my fresh pressed cider before adding yeast all the time. I've never had
a problem.

[Joerg]

Post by Bob F

Post by Joerg
On two upcoming brews I'd like to add honey to two standard recipes. One
is the American Wheat from Midwest and the other their Stout. Both are
extract kits from their "Simply Beer" series. Hoping to spruce up the
Wheat Beer and turn the Stout into some sort of Honey Porter.
https://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/HoneyWeizen.pdf
Will that sterilize the honey well enough? I bought 3lbs of artisan
clover honey from Minnesota (also via Midwest) for this experiment.
For their Honey Porter they recommend 2mins before end of boil and I
assume you'll really have to bring it back to a rolling boil which would
https://www.midwestsupplies.com/downloads/dl/file/id/867/product/7711/honey_porter_ale_instructions.pdf
Other recipes call for 10mins if honey flavors are to be preserved and
30mins if it's just about raising the alcohol level. I am going for
taste here, not alcohol. Yet others say to sterilize the honey and add
it to primary at high kraeusen, something that is too cumbersome for me
right now and my precision thermometer is currently busted.
All quite confusing.
Added question: With a weak heat source the boil times really stretch if
I add anything such as LME. Does the recommended remaining boil time
start at "slightly wavy boil" or a full rolling boil?

I add honey after just warming it enough to flow out of the bottle, to
my fresh pressed cider before adding yeast all the time. I've never had
a problem.

Sounds good. I'll start with adding at post-boil and see how the beer
tastes. If not enough honey accents I'll add it later for the next
batches, after the wort is all cooled.