Using Amylase in a Stuck Ale

[Al Fresco]

As I have mentioned, I had a couple of beers that got stuck at 1.020.
One was a wheat ale. Today I got my hands on some amylase and dosed it.
I figured that was better than pouring it out.

My question: how long does it take amylase to work at room temperature?

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Al Fresco
As I have mentioned, I had a couple of beers that got stuck at 1.020.
One was a wheat ale. Today I got my hands on some amylase and dosed it.
I figured that was better than pouring it out.

Were you able to figure out why they were stuck, or is the amylaze just
taking the shotgun approach?


John.

[Al Fresco]

I'm not a chemist. I had to guess. Re-pitching with a big aerated
starter had no effect. And the starter was made from yeast I took from
the stuck beer, and it was very vigorous, so there's nothing wrong with
the yeast.

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar

Post by Al Fresco
As I have mentioned, I had a couple of beers that got stuck at 1.020.
One was a wheat ale. Today I got my hands on some amylase and dosed it.
I figured that was better than pouring it out.

Were you able to figure out why they were stuck, or is the amylaze just
taking the shotgun approach?
John.

[Droopy]

It could have been the wort though. Like not enough O2 to get out of
lag phase.

[Scott L]

Post by Al Fresco
I'm not a chemist. I had to guess. Re-pitching with a big aerated
starter had no effect. And the starter was made from yeast I took from
the stuck beer, and it was very vigorous, so there's nothing wrong with
the yeast.

If there was nothing wrong with the yeast, then the wort simply
couldn't ferment any more. You may have mashed at a high temperature
which resulted in lots of leftover unfermentable sugars.

Now you run the risk of your beer turning into water. I think this was
an overreaction to 1.020, that's not *that* bad. What was your starting
gravity?

Scott

[Al Fresco]

I am not drinking no 1.020 barley punch.

Post by Scott L

Post by Al Fresco
I'm not a chemist. I had to guess. Re-pitching with a big aerated
starter had no effect. And the starter was made from yeast I took from
the stuck beer, and it was very vigorous, so there's nothing wrong with
the yeast.

If there was nothing wrong with the yeast, then the wort simply
couldn't ferment any more. You may have mashed at a high temperature
which resulted in lots of leftover unfermentable sugars.
Now you run the risk of your beer turning into water. I think this was
an overreaction to 1.020, that's not *that* bad. What was your starting
gravity?
Scott

[Scott L]

Post by Al Fresco
I am not drinking no 1.020 barley punch.

Well, I think now you'll be drinking tinted water...

Scott

[Al Fresco]

Why does everyone say that about amylase?

Here is what I've been told. Beano ferments the crap out of beer because
it's a mean enzyme not normally found in malt. Amylase, on the other
hand, is an enzyme present in an ordinary mash. You can't mash too long,
because amylase only breaks up certain starches. It leaves the rest alone.

If all those things are true, why would amylase be a threat to beer that
has already been brewed? Why would it do more damage to a mostly
finished beer than it does to malt at ideal temperatures?

Post by Scott L

Post by Al Fresco
I am not drinking no 1.020 barley punch.

Well, I think now you'll be drinking tinted water...
Scott

[Scott L]

Post by Al Fresco
If all those things are true, why would amylase be a threat to beer that
has already been brewed? Why would it do more damage to a mostly
finished beer than it does to malt at ideal temperatures?

Don't get me wrong. Amylase won't work nearly as quickly in beer as it
would in hot wort. For one thing, the temperature is too low. For
another, the pH is off.

But I know firsthand the effects of a cool mash. The resulting beer is
dry almost to the point of tastelessness. In combination with an
attenuative yeast (in my case, Nottingham gives the most problems) you
can end up with something that bears a close resemblence to water.

I hope you'll report back the results of your attempt. Also, what was
your OG, or equivalently, what apparent attenuation do you have right
now?

Scott

[David Edge]

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:59:25 -0400, Al Fresco

Post by Al Fresco
Amylase, on the other
hand, is an enzyme present in an ordinary mash. You can't mash too long,
because amylase only breaks up certain starches. It leaves the rest alone.
If all those things are true, why would amylase be a threat to beer that
has already been brewed? Why would it do more damage to a mostly
finished beer than it does to malt at ideal temperatures?

Because the amylase might have been exhausted in the mash tun before
it had chopped the starches and dextrins as far as it might as a
result of any combination of:

intrinsically low diastatic power
age
heat stress in storage
heat at dough in
hot mash
dilution by adjuncts
mashout before conversion has proceeded as far as you wanted

It is therefore possible that amylase would generate significant
amounts of fermentable sugar in such a wort,

David Edge

[Al Fresco]

That doesn't answer my question. I'm not asking why amylase would
continue creating sugar. That's obvious.

Here is what I'm asking: if the amylase in a mash can NEVER go too far
in reducing starches to sugar, no matter how long you mash or how highly
modified the grain is, how is it that amylase can go to far when you add
it after the beer starts fermenting?

Everyone agrees that it's impossible to get a too-dry beer by doing a
normal mash, even if you let it go all night. And amylase is at work in
a normal mash. So why do people say the same chemical will go too far if
you add it later?

Post by David Edge
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:59:25 -0400, Al Fresco

Post by Al Fresco
Amylase, on the other
hand, is an enzyme present in an ordinary mash. You can't mash too long,
because amylase only breaks up certain starches. It leaves the rest alone.
If all those things are true, why would amylase be a threat to beer that
has already been brewed? Why would it do more damage to a mostly
finished beer than it does to malt at ideal temperatures?

Because the amylase might have been exhausted in the mash tun before
it had chopped the starches and dextrins as far as it might as a
intrinsically low diastatic power
age
heat stress in storage
heat at dough in
hot mash
dilution by adjuncts
mashout before conversion has proceeded as far as you wanted
It is therefore possible that amylase would generate significant
amounts of fermentable sugar in such a wort,
David Edge

[Scott L]

Post by Al Fresco
Everyone agrees that it's impossible to get a too-dry beer by doing a
normal mash, even if you let it go all night.

It's not really time duration that makes the difference, it's mash
temperature controlling activity of beta amylase over alpha amylase. In
your situation the "mash" temperature is extremely low (room
temperature) so who knows how the enzymes will behave?

What I do know is that if beta amylase dominates, your beer will be too
dry.

Scott

[bregent]

Post by Al Fresco
That doesn't answer my question. I'm not asking why amylase would
continue creating sugar. That's obvious.
Here is what I'm asking: if the amylase in a mash can NEVER go too far
in reducing starches to sugar, no matter how long you mash or how highly
modified the grain is, how is it that amylase can go to far when you add
it after the beer starts fermenting?
Everyone agrees that it's impossible to get a too-dry beer by doing a
normal mash, even if you let it go all night.

I guess I'm not everyone. I've had several overattenuated 'too-dry' beers
without the addidtion of enzymes.

Naturally occuring enzymes are destroyed in the boil, so no further
sacchrification takes place.

When you add enzymes post boil, amylase or other, you can certainly go too far.
Just start with a small amount and see how it goes.

Post by Al Fresco
And amylase is at work in
a normal mash. So why do people say the same chemical will go too far if
you add it later?

Because the heat of the mash, while accelerating the enzymatic process, also
denatures the enzymes.

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Al Fresco
Here is what I'm asking: if the amylase in a mash can NEVER go too far
in reducing starches to sugar, no matter how long you mash or how highly
modified the grain is, how is it that amylase can go to far when you add
it after the beer starts fermenting?

Your first assertion is false. Amylase *can* go too far if you mash
too long, that's the problem.

Post by Al Fresco
Everyone agrees that it's impossible to get a too-dry beer by doing a
normal mash, even if you let it go all night.

Why do you think everyone agrees to this? If you mash overnight, you
very likely will end up with a much simpler sugar profile in your wort
than if you had stopped it when conversion was complete.


John.

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Al Fresco
Why does everyone say that about amylase?
Here is what I've been told. Beano ferments the crap out of beer because
it's a mean enzyme not normally found in malt. Amylase, on the other
hand, is an enzyme present in an ordinary mash. You can't mash too long,
because amylase only breaks up certain starches. It leaves the rest alone.
If all those things are true

They're not all true though. Your second one "You can't mash too long because
amylase only breaks up certains starches" is incorrect. You *can* mash
too long and the amylase will continue to break complex sugars down into
simple ones, making your wort very fermentable... aka it will end up being
a really dry beer.


John.

[Al Fresco]

So when people tell me doing a longer mash won't make any difference,
they're wrong?

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar

Post by Al Fresco
Why does everyone say that about amylase?
Here is what I've been told. Beano ferments the crap out of beer because
it's a mean enzyme not normally found in malt. Amylase, on the other
hand, is an enzyme present in an ordinary mash. You can't mash too long,
because amylase only breaks up certain starches. It leaves the rest alone.
If all those things are true

They're not all true though. Your second one "You can't mash too long because
amylase only breaks up certains starches" is incorrect. You *can* mash
too long and the amylase will continue to break complex sugars down into
simple ones, making your wort very fermentable... aka it will end up being
a really dry beer.
John.

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Al Fresco
So when people tell me doing a longer mash won't make any difference,
they're wrong?

Yes, they are wrong.


John.

[Scott L]

Post by Al Fresco
So when people tell me doing a longer mash won't make any difference,
they're wrong?

I think the sense in which that is meant is, "You don't NEED a longer
mash," not that it makes no difference to the final wort. Generally if
you don't have full conversion within 60 minutes, this indicates a
problem with your crush, or incomplete mixing of the mash.

But "full conversion" just means that there's no starch left. The
amylase enzymes are still breaking large sugars down into smaller ones,
which will increase the fermentability and final dryness of the beer.

But I haven't heard anything about adding amylase (which isn't the same
thing as Beano) to a stuck ferment. So I'm eager to hear what actually
happens. For all I know the pH and cooler temperatures will limit the
effect of the enzymes.

Scott

[Al Fresco]

It's definitely working. I got foam within half an hour or so, and the
gravity is dropping.

And I added Beano to an American-style crap lager I made recently, and
it worked, too. I fully expect the Beano to produce a dry beer, but that
batch was a throwaway intended for swill drinkers.

Post by Scott L

Post by Al Fresco
So when people tell me doing a longer mash won't make any difference,
they're wrong?

I think the sense in which that is meant is, "You don't NEED a longer
mash," not that it makes no difference to the final wort. Generally if
you don't have full conversion within 60 minutes, this indicates a
problem with your crush, or incomplete mixing of the mash.
But "full conversion" just means that there's no starch left. The
amylase enzymes are still breaking large sugars down into smaller ones,
which will increase the fermentability and final dryness of the beer.
But I haven't heard anything about adding amylase (which isn't the same
thing as Beano) to a stuck ferment. So I'm eager to hear what actually
happens. For all I know the pH and cooler temperatures will limit the
effect of the enzymes.
Scott

[Denny Conn]

Post by Scott L
But "full conversion" just means that there's no starch left. The
amylase enzymes are still breaking large sugars down into smaller ones,
which will increase the fermentability and final dryness of the beer.

I think this is a really important point. People confuse getting
conversion with getting a certain dextrin profile, and there's really no
correlation. As you point out, conversion is only one part of it.
Along with that are the alpha/beta beta reactions that determine the
fermentability and body of the beer. It's entirely possible to have
full conversion, but a wort that's less fermentable.

--------->Denny

[John 'Shaggy' Kolesar]

Post by Al Fresco
Why does everyone say that about amylase?
Here is what I've been told. Beano ferments the crap out of beer because
it's a mean enzyme not normally found in malt. Amylase, on the other

BTW, I'm not 100% positive, but I thought that the enzyme in Beano was amylase.


John.

[Scott L]

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
BTW, I'm not 100% positive, but I thought that the enzyme in Beano was amylase.

The enzyme in Beano is galactosidase, not amylase.

Scott

[Andy Davison]

Post by John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
BTW, I'm not 100% positive, but I thought that the enzyme in Beano was amylase.

The main active ingredient in Beano is alpha-galactosidase
<http://www.preventcci.com/treating/default.aspx#treatment>

[Andy Davison]

Post by Al Fresco
You can't mash too long,
because amylase only breaks up certain starches. It leaves the rest alone.

That's not actually true. There are more than one type of amylase for a
start. The two most important enzymes in an average wort are alpha and beta
amylase. In a very simplistic version of what happens, alpha amylase breaks
starch down into long chain sugars which are relatively unfermentable by
yeast. Beta amylase breaks down starch into short chain sugars which are
fully fermentable by yeast. Beta amylase will also break long chain sugars
created by alpha amylase into short chain sugars thus resulting in a drier
beer at the end of it all. If you mash a lot longer the beta amylase will
have a lot more time to break down long chain molecules and when it runs
out of starch it will concentrate on long chain sugars which are being
created by the alpha amylase. The longer the mash the more of these sugars
will be converted to fermentable short chain ones and the drier the
resulting beer. Also you need to take into account the temperature of the
mash. Ideal temperature varies for the different enzymes and for beta
amylase this is lower than for alpha amylase but in a long mash there will
be a slight loss of temperature which will benefit the beta amylase rather
than the alpha and the result of that will be a drier beer. Another factor
is lactobacillus which needs the amylases to convert the starch into sugar
but will then sour a mash if you leave it too long while the temperature
slowly drops (certainly a couple of days will produce a sour mash). This is
one of the things rye whiskey distillers sometimes do. While this may not
be a factor if mashing overnight it does prove you can mash too long quite
apart from what the enzymes are doing.

[David Edge]

Heresy alert!

Post by Al Fresco
As I have mentioned, I had a couple of beers that got stuck at 1.020.
One was a wheat ale. Today I got my hands on some amylase and dosed it.
I figured that was better than pouring it out.

We made an imperial stout and owing to a combination of mashing too
hot and an inappropriate yeast choice it fermented all the way down
from 1100 to 1064 plus whatever it has achieved in the bottle.

It's drinking ok 10 months on.

RDW&HA

David Edge, Derby